Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: Kristoffer on December 18, 2015, 07:19:46 AM
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Hi all
This is my first post... and it's about a common problem it seems. I am used to conventional systems, and DW is really hard for me to get my head around. I am super-excited to try it out but it seems to require a completely new mindset.
If we use the front from the beginners guide as an example (found here http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=4996.0). I will ask my questions in bullet form... I will greatly appreciate it if someone could provide some input.
1) How would you start this adventure? And would the players know about the dangers from the get-go or would they find out by interacting with NPC:s?
2) There are certain "questions for the players" listed. But isn't the whole game based in large part on asking questions from the players? If so, why are these specific ones listed?
3) If players approach a point of interest, would you ask them "ok, what is the place like?" or would you make it up as you go?
4) The dangers/grim portents... how would you get the PC:s in touch with the dangers/grim portents (in order to stop them from realizing)?
5) How should the "stakes" be used? Who should answer these questions, and when?
I guess I am so used to conventional RPG thinking that I really stumble... yet me and my group are really interested in giving DW a go.
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I wouldn't ask the players much of anything about points of interest. I might ask the characters. So, if the character would have a reason to know what something looked like you could ask them, but if not its your job to tell them about the world.
Again, there's no reason to tell the players anything about your fronts other than rough the lense of the character. That's what the questions to the players are trying to tease out, who knows things, who's not from around here, who might have secret sea elf knowledge, etc.
You don't have the job of getting the players in touch with grim portents, you're playing to find out what happens and following your other principals.
I think stakes questions are things that the GM should keep in mind during play. They may find there way into actual questions of the characters, or not.
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Thanks for your reply
I have further questions. If my stupidity is getting on your nerves feel free to ignore my questions
I wouldn't ask the players much of anything about points of interest. I might ask the characters. So, if the character would have a reason to know what something looked like you could ask them, but if not its your job to tell them about the world.
The rules tell us not to make maps or any detailed plans. But why not, if it is the DM's role anyway to tell the players about the world. When they enter a dungeon, isn't it easier to have it all mapped out? Especially if one's improv skills aren't that good?
Again, there's no reason to tell the players anything about your fronts other than rough the lense of the character. That's what the questions to the players are trying to tease out, who knows things, who's not from around here, who might have secret sea elf knowledge, etc.
So, in theory, one could end up with a situation where no one has any idea about what to do?
You don't have the job of getting the players in touch with grim portents, you're playing to find out what happens and following your other principals.
In practice, what does playing to find out what happens mean? I find this statement intriguing, but I cannot imagine what it means.
I tried searching the web and found examples of play, but mostly fights and actions scenes. I think the engine handles these things in a most excellent way but I am still totally lost as to how the other principles apply. There seems to be something here that I cannot wrap my head around, and I fear I will never do it unfortunately.
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"Play to find out" means not going into the game with a pre-set story-agenda or script or "plot." It means you've set up a situation (as indicated by your front and hinted at by your grim portents) and dropped the players into that situation to see what they do. Don't plan on a final, climactic battle with the Dragon, because if you play to find out, your players might end up working for the Dragon, which would be awesome!
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Thanks!
But you'd have to have an adventure hook of some kind, right? I mean the characters need to be informed about what is going on in the world (dangers, grim portents) otherwise they have no possibility of acting to change things.
So some minimal pre-planning would be in order, right?
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Yes, but the thing you're "pre-planning" is the situation, not the story. So in the example, the dragon (its end goal and whatever steps it plans to take to achieve those goals) is the planned part. In terms of a "hook," that's all about presenting your Grim Portents to the players in such a way as to motivate them to do something about it all.
And that is very explicitly why the term "Threats" is used in Apocalypse World (and many of its successors including Dungeon World) - the situation represented by the front breaks down into one or more discrete people/groups/monsters/forces/concepts that threaten what little stability is represented by the current status quo. The Dragon is a threat because feeding its young is presumably bad for the local populace. The Magmin are a threat because they have their own agenda and want to seize control, presumably to enslave the local populace to work in the mine. The Dragon Cult is a threat because it will ultimately end up sacrificing people to the dragon. And so on.
So while the Dragon Cult might be a Threat (within the overall Front), its Grim Portents serve as the hooks to involve the players. And the whole idea of the Grim Portents is that they illustrate the escalation of the situation - first it's just rumors of a cult, or crazy rabble-rousers spouting pro-dragon madness in the market square. Then it's rampant fear in the town, followed shortly by martial law as the authorities try to root out the ring leaders. Then it's the Dragon Cult attempting to seize power. Then, once in power, it's the Dragon Cult deciding (by whatever means) who gets sacrificed to the Dragon.
At any step along the way, the players can become involved, and it is the job of the GM to give them reasons why getting involved is worth doing (i.e. one of the PCs family members has gotten implicated - perhaps mistakenly, perhaps not - in cult activities, swept up in the raids associated with the imposition of martial law, and is likely to be executed in the morning; or the cult is now in control and has decided that one of the PCs would make the perfect sacrifice to the Dragon; or whatever).
But the point of "playing to find out" is that you have no idea which way the players will jump or what they'll do. For instance, maybe if the imposition of martial law is perceived as particularly brutal, the players will actually side with the Dragon Cult. That story is just as interesting and compelling as if the players oppose the Dragon Cult from the very beginning, especially if the PCs back the cult at first because they feel the authorities are over-reacting, then realize later the danger that the cult represents.
And if the players choose not to become involved, then the Doom or Dark Fate or whatever end-condition represented by the Threat comes to pass. If the players do nothing, the Dragon Cult is in control of the human population of the island and is regularly sacrificing people to the dragon. Those that aren't already enslaved by the Magmin, that is.
Does this make sense?
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Yes it does! Thank you very much Munin for taking the time to write this (y)
Perfect :) thanks
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No worries, happy to help! And let us know how your first session goes!
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I will! (It is scheduled for Jan. 8)
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I promised to be back with a report from the 1st session... which never happened because of illness.
Nothing else to report for the moment.
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Heh, I hate it when that happens! Hope everyone feels better!
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Illness sucks.
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ok so we had our first session last friday. we had a blast!
I made some errors, made some hard moves as a consequence of partial successes and so on. It is hard to let go of conventional RPG-thinking...
At one point I let the party set a trap that shouldn't have been possible. They were in a cave, and they proposed to make some rope-contraption that they attached to the wall. I guess I did not ask enough questions; had I asked "how are you doing this exactly, with what?" it would have been evident that what they intended to do wasn't really possible.
It also struck me that using some models during combat would aid in getting everyone to have a common understanding of what is going on.
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I'm glad your group enjoyed it! And yes, sketching out maps or using minis or whatever can be very helpful to get everyone on the same page when it comes to the fictional landscape.
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Kristoffer, I see no one answered your question about maps. The rule there is make maps but leave blanks. That means, you know, map out your dungeon the way you normally would, but don't necessarily detail every room. That means a few of your rooms have just a one-word prompt, 'undead' or 'razor room' or 'chasm', or are just blank. Don't commit yourself to what's in those rooms. Let your table's play inspire you as the party gets to those rooms.
Re: adventure hooks -- Dungeon World has a few tools to let you pre-plan situation but not actual story/plot. One of them is the fronts, and Munin's advice there is excellent. Another tool, more to the point of your question about adventure hooks, is the idea of starting the party in media res. Meaning, you know, start them right in the action. So, no scenes of them in the tavern getting a mission or whatever. Start them just inside the dungeon, fighting off a horde of goblins who were guarding the mouth of the cave. Start them in the treasure room with the trap already activated and the sand filling up the room or whatever.
Re: ask questions -- yeah, ask questions from the players to a) do collaborative world-building, so it's not all on you and b) to solicit things that are of interest to them. Ask questions like crazy! You're looking for interesting bits from the players to take as cues for the kinds of things they want to see in the game.
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Thanks all for your input!
The rulebook/guide also mentions leaving blanks in the maps for the players to explore. I can see how blanks can be filled out by the players in the first session, but after that, once the campaign is started, how would this happen?
The DM asking the players what they find on their journey? This could lead to absurd situations...
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Kristoffer,
Dungeon World can work in different ways: some people *like* just making things up willy-nilly. However, the basic idea which most people prefer to that kind of wild, open-ended creation is this:
* You can ask questions of the *characters*, but not the *players*.
This means that, before you ask a question, make sure you phrase it in a way that the character has a chance to answer.
For example, if the heroes stumble into an underground tomb, and they look to you and say, "What do we find inside?"... it would be pretty awkward for you to ask them: "Well, tell me, what do you find?" They'll likely give you some blank stares. And rightfully so, because isn't it your job to tell them what's there, and their job to discover it?
However, when you don't have an idea ready, you can leverage their creativity. Re-phrase the question as something the characters could answer:
* "This is the tomb of an the ancient Crimson Order [something you established earlier in the campaign]. Kyrion, what's the wildest story you heard as a child about the Order's creations?"
* "When you wandered into this region, it was because you sought treasure. What's the most famous treasure that's rumoured to have been lost in these lands?"
* "Ragnar, you have done a great deal of reading about the curses of the Elder Gods. Want to share your findings with the group before you enter?" If they do, have them roll to Spout Lore.
This works well because it's familiar to the players (they're just playing their characters in response) and because it preserves the suspense of discovery: they'll throw you ideas but they still don't know what exactly they're facing. Sometimes you can have their guesses be exactly right (and they'll cheer!), sometimes it will be a nasty surprise instead (but make sure you give them a chance to avoid it, so they don't feel like you trapped them by intentionally going against what they just said), but most often it will be something like what they said, but with a twist of your own. Here's where you make a move and bring forward a threat!
John Harper has a good little essay about this, though it's aimed more at designers:
http://mightyatom.blogspot.ca/2010/10/apocalypse-world-crossing-line.html
For example, let's say your players aren't quite on the same page as you about the game, or they don't totally trust you just yet. They grin and tell you, "Oh, yeah, sure, we heard that these tombs are supposed to contain incredible piles of gold, a powerful magic sword, and books of lore!" "Oh, right, and I also heard that the tombs were completely undefended and never had any traps!" "Yeah!"
Well, that's not great. But you can still use it:
"That's exactly right. You enter the tomb to find an enormous cavern. It looks like there was a battle here recently: the bodies of brigands line the floor from wall to wall, the stone is covered in dried blood. Whatever treasure was once here has been thoroughly looted. However, there's also something frightening: some of the bodies were sliced in half, as though by a great scythe, and the flesh around the edges has turned a otherworldly green. The wounds writhe with glowing maggots, about as long as your thumb."
You went with what they said - and the natural consequences! unguarded treasure won't be around for long - and added a twist to remind them that they said something about a powerful magic sword. Perhaps they'll stick around for a while, and those bodies will reanimate and attack them, or perhaps they will try to track down the victor of this particular fight to try to claim the treasure themselves. But maybe the Wizard will inspect the wounds and Spout Lore and you'll find out that it wasn't a magic sword at all but a dangerous, forbidden sorcery. Now you can work all those things into your Fronts, building naturally on what has taken place.
You'll now have dangerous bandits, armed with a magic sword and tons of gold they can use to hire a small army, or an outcast sorcerer who will cause havoc in the region, or some communicable otherworldly disease transmitted by glowing maggots.
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This was great advice, thanks! Now, I only have to get the players to boldly make stuff up :)