Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Sagas of the Icelanders => Topic started by: Gregor Vuga on June 22, 2010, 03:45:01 PM
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Also known, tongue-in-cheek, as Ragnarök World. At first it was pretty much a straight hack, with character playbooks/kits and all, but then I tore it apart, rewrote and now I'm here: my working document (http://"https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXWhY8dTQpdEZGN3NnI4ZjRfMTAwZnI3bW5nZGs&hl=en")
It's still very rough around the edges, stuff missing. I've been trying to come up with far too many new moves to be honest, because this was actually an original game I was working on, which I then adapted to AW, and it's a bit hard to reconcile the two in places. Hasn't been played yet, and I think I did as much as I could without further feedback and playtesting.
I think there's some cool subtle stuff taking shape in there, even if it's still a mess in other parts.
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Awrgh, the link seems to be broken and I can't find the "edit" button.
Here, let's try again: https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXWhY8dTQpdEZGN3NnI4ZjRfMTAwZnI3bW5nZGs&hl=en (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXWhY8dTQpdEZGN3NnI4ZjRfMTAwZnI3bW5nZGs&hl=en)
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Scandinavian as I am, I'm looking forward to diving in!
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That stuff is smokin'! The way you've captured what men and women do in the sagas is spot on. Very nice example of how you can set a game in a culture that is extremely strict on gender roles without the game in itself being sexist or ignorant.
A question though, are you sure you want women in general to be great at providing by living off nature? You sure you don't want to use fierce for running the household very tight or something like that?
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Hey, thanks!
As for the "living off nature" bit - that wasn't my intention, no. I guess I'll have to rephrase it in a different way, (or maybe change the whole move, really, I semi-stole it from Tony Dowler's "one move dungeon" resolution). Good call.
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Cool. I'll probably have more later on. But I guess you're not interested in feedback on typos and stuff in this?
(Oh, and you've got a message, since that still doesn't seem to be flagged.)
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Actually, any kind of criticism and feedback is welcome. I want to polish this until it shines (even if I have to dismantle it again).
I replied to your message. Yeah, it's annoying that the notifications don't work yet.
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The woman's bear child move seems ripe for 7-9 clauses:
- The child is born sickly.
- The child is born with pureblack eyes.
- The child is stolen away in the night.
Other than that, looks good.
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That is bloody awesome!
As someone who lives in iceland, and has read all the eddas and sagas, I LOVE the moves :)
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I just read it.
WOW. This is so, so good. I'm blown away.
Seriously cannot wait to play.
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I must lower my self-criticism threshold. I didn't expect you all to get so excited.
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This is very cool.
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Ooo. I really like the look of this so far. I think you've done a good job so far of portraying gender roles appropriate to the sagas without sliding into accidental type-casting. The part where you have
Matron
[...]
does that mean you're still working on that bit? 'Cause I have ideas.
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All the bits where it says "[...]", yes, those are "more to come" tags. Probably not for another week or so however. Real life is calling.
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I would love to hear your Matron ideas, Meg.
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Oh, I totally missed the "I have ideas bit". Do tell!
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By Odin's Ravens this is good stuff!
I only just last night got to read through the whole rules, even though I've been meaning to since you posted this on praxis. I think you've done some really exciting stuff to make the game your own while still using the AW rules (like the either/or stats, the gender based moves and so forth). Awesome stuff.
Also, thanks much for the kind mention of Ragonarok in the Ludography, your research and detail really puts mine to shame.
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I love and heartily endorse this hack. More! More!
That is all for now.
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Thoughts about Matrons:
Why Matrons? Why not Grandmothers? You have a maiden, and the basic Woman character is explicitly very possibly a mother, so that leaves only the older woman aspect available. The magic-weaver has many of the qualities I'd generally consider the realm of the grandmothers, but I can see keeping them separate in order to have young women magicians. Personally, I kind of like the push of "you can be a magic-weaver, but only if you've lived long enough".
If by Matron you mean a woman grown, no longer a maiden:
Beer-giver - about hospitality and social status: Versed move
Hearth-keeper - about protecting what's yours: Fierce move
Counselor - about supporting your interests, a flip on the 'goad a man' move, roll on Versed
If by Matron you mean a woman of age:
Memory-holder - you were around back then, and you know the true history: Wyrd move
Mother of many - you have many descendants who will support you: Bond +1
Hearty - you've long since outlived all the local diseases: Hard move
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Jeff, I have to thank you, too. Seeing your hack on John's blog made me jumpstart this project which had been in the "so, it would be cool to write a serious viking game" phase for a long time. That and AW made it finally happen.
Meg, the distinctions between the seidkona (in before Jason Morningstar kicks my ass for not using the proper spelling - I'm on my sister's mac and it's a pain in the ass finding the right buttons yet alone special characters), the young woman and the matron are pretty arbitrary really. I think I divided them up that way just go enforce some flavour. I might get rid of them all together and just leave a list of moves to choose from...I dunno yet.
And yeah, the Matron was supposed to be an older woman in charge of the household (in the case men died, left or found unable to rule) - as opposed to the Young Woman which is supposed to be more of a traditional wife and/or maiden role (kidnapped in Ireland). Grandmother is a great name, better than matron by far. Consider it stolen. The moves are sweet, too. I'll probably do a mix and match of those.
Right now, I'm itching to make the Godi (Morningstar alert!) a kit on its own, which I think it deserves. However, that would mean the women get one kit less and I can't think of an additional one. Except maybe if I made the Wanderer a gender-agnostic role but I'm not sure it fits.
Oh, and before I forget: expect an update by Sunday or Monday. Then the game will be almost complete.
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Glad to help :) On hearing more about your concept, I think you could use any combination of the six moves I suggested. I'm looking forward to seeing the next bit!
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Here we go:
https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXWhY8dTQpdEZGN3NnI4ZjRfMTAwZnI3bW5nZGs&hl=en (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXWhY8dTQpdEZGN3NnI4ZjRfMTAwZnI3bW5nZGs&hl=en)
I think it's now at a point where I can't really add anything without it seeing some serious play first.
I should also play more straight AW, there's still a lot about Afflictions and Fronts which I'm missing and should eventually port to this hack. As it is, it's completely lacking Fronts. (But I guess any competent GM with some AW experience should know what to do.) Vincent said something about handling disease as a front in regards to the new Angel kit. I need to see the rewrite for that before I start writing up rules for how to handle Cold, Sickness, Famine and other types of Afflictions I'm thinking about.
If you do play, I'd be extremely happy to hear about your experience. I'd be also glad if someone came up with a fourth female kit or suggested another way to balance the gender moves.
As it is, the document also lacks and serious guidelines for how to handle Bonds. I think it should evolve in play, you know prescriptive and descriptive.
What else...uhm...no, I think that's that. Have fun!
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I'm pushing to see this get some play in our group, but at the moment our schedule is almost completely filled with other games already in progress.
In the meantime, I would be very happy if at least a few of you could take your time and tell me:
-which moves you're the most excited about?
-which moves leave you going "meh"?
-do you think anything is missing?
-do you think anything goes against the spirit of the source material? (icelandic sagas, the prose edda, viking mythology, real viking history)
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First off, I'm really excited about this game overall, and I hope I get a chance to play it in the nearish future!
Moves-wise, I think I'm most excited about goad a man/insult a man and the interaction with defend your good name. That stuff is hot.
Also, the gender division in the rules is really compelling and genre-building. Very cool.
There aren't really any moves that, on reading, leave me 'meh'. I'm not sure about in play, of course. The closest I can point out, by way of trying to be helpful, is that the preach move for a Christian seems like an important move to have, but the options seem a little flat. I dunno. Like I said, I'm not even meh about that, just less enthusiastic :)
I think this captures the source material (as I know it) really well. Should there be rules for getting drunk/drinking contests? That's about the only thing 'missing' I can come up with right now.
I'm sorry to not provide more constructive criticism (and I *might* be using an older version of the PDF, my downloading has been screwy recently) but this really does look like a swell game.
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Just read through the updated version (hooray for non-peak hours on my crappy wireless connection), and I'm even more excited about it! I think the Wanderer is the coolest role (mostly because I *really* like the role of wyrd as presented), but all of them look playable and interesting. Good stuff!
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It seems like the missing female role is the outsider, kind of like the Wanderer. Possible ways to approach that - Valkyrie, Widow, Queen, Artisan - each of which would have it's own complications. Personally, I like the idea of a Valkyrie type that's good at fighting, good with animals, and can reach a situation. She's not so good with relationships, though.
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It seems like the missing female role is the outsider, kind of like the Wanderer.
"Shieldmaiden", maybe?
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It seems like the missing female role is the outsider, kind of like the Wanderer. Possible ways to approach that - Valkyrie, Widow, Queen, Artisan - each of which would have it's own complications. Personally, I like the idea of a Valkyrie type that's good at fighting, good with animals, and can reach a situation. She's not so good with relationships, though.
Yes!
It seems like the missing female role is the outsider, kind of like the Wanderer.
"Shieldmaiden", maybe?
Double yes!
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*high fives Neon Fox*
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*high fives back*
I love this hack. I'm not liable to be able to sell my group on it, but I love it anyway. :)
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I think I'm in love with this hack.
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Hey Gregor, I just had a thought.
My usual gaming group isn't likely to be into the Sagas. But I'm about to head to Pennsic, which has a rather high concentration of People Who Do Historic Shit, including a number of Vikings personally known to me. Want me to print out a copy or two and take it along, see if I can get anyone interested in playtesting?
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Mr. NeonFox: If you haven't left already, yes!
Also, thanks to everyone for the support. I'll post a new character set relatively soon (the shieldmaiden) and then I'll start talking about what I have in mind for fronts.
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[Neon Fox is more of a Ms-type than a Mr-type fox, really :) ]
So, the set-up for fronts remains the same, and harm and hx?
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Oh. I'm terribly sorry, I hate it when that happens. It's that damn "everyone is male, white and middle-aged until identified" cultural fallacy. My sincere apologies.
As for fronts, harm and hx:
-fronts, I'm probably going to rewrite because I feel that SotI needs some unique ones. I'll post about that in the near future.
-harm should basically stay the way it is in AW, just note that the "suffer harm" move is different. There's also no medikits or Angels.
-I'm going to abandon Hx. It should be replaced by Bond. But I still need to iron that out a bit.
I got sidetracked by real life and my other games. Expect some stuff soon*.
*(when it's ready)
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I've seen this doc getting updated over the weeks but it's been a while since I looked at it. Again I'm struck by the awesomeness of it. Very cool and good in many ways.
A couple of comments, of mixed nature...
- The appearance options are so very cool. (I'm in love with manly face for women!)
- Re last names, like -(s)son I think it should be -(s)dóttir. All my icelandic friends (and their friends on facebook) have it that way. Kristinsdóttir, Johannsdóttir. Could be a modern thing, but I wouldn't assume it.
- You are, in several places, quite careful to point out that what the character has isn't too much, especially when it comes to people around them. A small ship with a few men, two slaves, a warchief defaulting to one or two loyal warriors. Is this an important part of how you want it? To me it feels much more exciting to let the warchief be a warchief, with a medium gang as default, or thereabouts.
- The viking gets a karve ship, but that's not mentioned in the world description later. Why not just give them a longship, of which the karve is a variant, as I understand it?
- At the moment Gestur, Beer-giver, Cunning and Homeless give me the hots the most. But then again, that changes every time I look at the text! And nothing gives me the meh.
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(Each time I check in at B-FA, I hope there is new stuff in this thread. *sigh* :) )
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I'd like to see more too. I almost started a "Vikings" game the other day, then I remembered this hack.
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Terribly sorry for the silence.
I'll do my best to pick it back up in the near future. I've been waiting for my copy of AW to arrive in the mail, and my life has been quite busy and my computer uncooperative. Soon.
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No pressure, Gregor, we're just enthusiastic!
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Yeah. Take care of life. Then, come back and work on this shit.
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Fuck life, right.
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Sometimes, yeah! ;)
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I'm excited about the insult move.
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Me too!
Anyway, I've been out of the loop for a while, but this is definitely happening!
Expect a pdf soon-ish. In this context "soon-ish" might mean anything from a week to a couple of months, probably no more than that. But it's coming.
After the pdf hits the web, I want to do a PbP game, probably on Snail's pace. I'm taking early applications now. No more than six people please.
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You already know I'm down with the PbP stuff, so please consider this my application :)
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I'd love to play.
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I've never done a PbP, but I'd love to try!
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I was just wondering where this project is at? I would love to run some at Conception which is the last weekend in January!
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Most of the work is done for the playtest doc. Classess and moves are being rewritten and shuffled about a bit. I need to put them in some presentable layout, which I suck at.
I can't promise anything, but I think you'll be able to get it before the end of january.
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Woohoo!
I was looking forward to see the progresses of this game.
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Ooooooooooh, I want this sooooo baaaaad!!!! How bad? So bad I'm using too many letters is how bad!
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Awesome news!