Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: Brozzart on March 05, 2015, 02:12:58 PM
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From the sidebar text on page 107 of the rule book:
"Animal moves just say
what the animal naturally
does, like “call the pack,”
“trample them,” or
“escape to the air.” When
you spend your hold your
natural instinct kicks in
and that move happens.
If you spend hold to
escape to the air, that’s
it—you’re away and on
the wing"
I often read that the way this should be interpreted as animal moves just 'succeed' if they have a hold to spend on the move.
If you transform into an elephant and say 'I want to trample the group of orcs', you spend 1 hold and you just kill them all.
Now, for obvious reasons, this isn't fun for the rest of the party. Nobody wants to struggle to kill one enemy and then have someone else wipe them off the map in one swoop, without so much as a combat roll.
I guess my question are:
Am I understanding the rules incorrectly? Could a dinosaur sized shapeshifted druid just stomp an entire hobgoblin war band?
Why does shapeshifting hold basically no penalty? A druid with +3 wis has a 92% chance of rolling 7+ which means they have a 92% chance of not having even the slightest consequence.
In contrast, a wizard or cleric could face consequence on ~40% of their spell casts (with a +3 modifier).
Why does shapeshifted druid moves just 'work'. Why is there no roll required?
Surely enemies would scatter from the path of a charging elephant; why do they stand there and meet the giant grey feet with open arms?
I understand why a mountain goat doesn't have to roll to scale a rock face, but I imagine if there were giants throwing boulders down there is now a risk that is beyond what a mountain goat 'could normally do' without effort.
The same goes for a bird's flight, I understand that flying across a field is a trivial task for a hawk, but what if there was a constant hail of arrows in the air. Now shouldn't the druid have to defy some danger?
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Surely the Elephant's move is "trample smaller creatures under foot," not "trample all the orcs in the room." The druid isn't guaranteed to trample everyone, just to trample.
And where does it say the druid doesn't have to defy danger if there's a hail of arrows? The move is "soar into the sky" not "pass through hail of arrows unscathed."
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I would be willing to accept all that if it weren't for the 92% chance of success.
Thank you for clearing up the moves. I guess I'll just have to be more limiting in the player's moves.
Why is there no penalty on a partial success, however?
Typically we see choices to increase danger, accept unwelcome truth, lose spells, take damage, etc on a partial success and total failure on a miss.
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But, there isn't a 92% chance of success in trampling, just in turning into an elephant. There's a 92% chance that the Druid will have some hold. If he tries to trample some orcs, he can spend that hold to trample. When the Druid tramples, he's guaranteed get the move. He behaves like an elephant. That's it. The GM determines what that means depending upon the fiction and the Agenda and Principles. That may mean that he tramples a couple of the orcs, and the other's dive out of the way. It may mean he has to defy danger from arrows. It may mean a lot of things.
It's actually not that easy to come up with penalties on partial success for the Druid's shapeshift move that would be fun to play out.
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Thanks. I appreciate you clearing things up with me. That is how I initially understood it to be, but after reading a few resources online they all made it seem like druid moves always succeed.
So when a wolf shifted druid uses a hold to make the move 'go for the throat' on an orc, he is lunging at the orc's throat.
Is this a situation where the druid rolls hack and slash, or do you just leave it up to how you want the fiction to roll as the DM?
Would 'go for the throat' deal class damage + bonus, or would it be an instant kill?
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All great questions. What does your Principle "Think Dangerous" say about this situation?
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I would personally make them roll it. Gives more possibilities for things to go wrong.
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That's fine. But you have an Agenda and Principles to follow in Dungeon World. Think Dangerous says,
... Everything can be put in danger, everything can be destroyed. Nothing you create is ever protected. Whenever your eye falls on something you’ve created, think how it can be put in danger, fall apart or crumble. The world changes...
So, it's not about the Orc. You're looking at the Orc like an evil overlord, ready to destroy it. And it's not really about creating possibilities for things to go wrong. You're a fan of the characters. It isn't your job to make things go wrong, but it is your Agenda to "Fill the characters’ lives with adventure." So, you're making things adventurous. Whatever happens it's not going to be boring. Maybe the Orc is a mean bastard and grabs the wolf around the throat while the wolf is going for his throat and damage is traded. Maybe the druid just rips his throat out and then has to deal with his spear wielding orc buddy. Or maybe this is the moment where we see the druid shine and he dispatches two orcs like nothing.
There isn't going to be one answer to the question. It's going to depend on the fiction your creating at the time. One thing I probably wouldn't do is make them roll Hack and Slash. H&S is it's own move and I'd have them roll it when they are hacking and slashing. This is the wolf move "Go for their throat."
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One thing I probably wouldn't do is make them roll Hack and Slash. H&S is it's own move and I'd have them roll it when they are hacking and slashing. This is the wolf move "Go for their throat."
Maybe I am misunderstanding (english is not my language...)
Would you not make the druid roll at all? Or are you just differentiating that the druid's roll is not the H&S move but they are still rolling for their move?
This is what I envision.
Go for the throat
roll + str
10+ deal class damage + 1d4
7-9 deal class damage + 1d4 and select 1 from
* Unwelcome truth
* increase danger
6- fail to do damage + whatever GM says
As for 'Think Dangerous": I am more than happy to kill the orc. I want the PCs to succeed but more importantly I want them to feel like they overcame something meaningful. I could "think dangerous" and decide that every PC insta-kills everything they hit but it probably wouldn't be very fun or challenging for them. Its not a question of protecting the bad guys from death, I just want to make sure everyone is having fun and feels like there is a challenge.
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I'm not doing a great job explaining. And I think you're looking for a singular answer when it's going to depend. The only thing that's always going to be true is that you follow your Agendas and Principles and make moves that begin and end with the fiction. But that's not very helpful.
My friend talks about GMing AW and DW as being like building a case in court. The Druid rips their throat out unless you've built a strong case that something else should happen instead.
I wouldn't make them roll a custom move to rip out a throat, that a wolf can rip out. You don't need permission to use your GM moves. He probably can rip out a human throat, but he's not going to be able to rip out an ogre's throat. What happens when he tries to rip out an Orc throat is up to you, but I think a wolf can probably do it. That doesn't mean they're not defying danger to get there, especially if the Orc has a spear, and a couple of friends, also with spears. I might Tell Them The Cost Or Consequences Then Ask. "You can totally rip out his throat, but the other one is going to stick a spear in your side. What do you do?" If he's been ripping out a bunch of throats and it's getting boring, I might Reveal the Unwelcome Truth that this Orc is wearing a big spiked collar as their teeth slide off and he rounds on them with a gnarly club. What do they do?
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From a post on this very forum, from Sage LaTorra:
A note on shapeshifting in general: taking on a new form is, in a way, saving up successes for particular tasks. The druid makes one roll and, through the clever selection of a form, can turn that into 1 or more successes. The cost of this is the new form: since everything is triggered by the fiction taking on a new form changes what rules engage. That's the fundamental tradeoff of a new form: that form's strengths turn your one roll into more successes, but that form also limits your options.
So you hold 1 or hold 3 wolf moves which are mostly automatic and potentially very powerful, but in the meantime you can't do anything that requires human form.
That whole thread (http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=5950.0) is pretty good and may help you get a better handle on the move.
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Thank you, noclue. That cleared things up immensely. I appreciate your patience and advice.
Borogove, they can shift into human form and back into a wolf at any time so I don't see a downside to that. Thank you for linking this thread, however; I will read it over.
Thank you both for taking the time to answer my question.
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Borogove, they can shift into human form and back into a wolf at any time so I don't see a downside to that. Thank you for linking this thread, however; I will read it over.
Not so. "Once you're out of hold, you return to your natural form. At any time, you may spend all your hold and revert to your natural form." Rulebook p.105.
So if you pass the roll and get hold, you're committed to wolf form, and if you get into a situation where you need opposable thumbs, you have a choice to make.
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Not so. "Once you're out of hold, you return to your natural form. At any time, you may spend all your hold and revert to your natural form." Rulebook p.105.
So if you pass the roll and get hold, you're committed to wolf form, and if you get into a situation where you need opposable thumbs, you have a choice to make.
Maybe I misunderstand again. There is no limit to the amount of times a druid may shapeshift so he can easily say "ok i use my holds to become human again" *do thing that needs thumbs "Ok I turn back into a wolf'' roll 2d6 "ok i remove throat". Any roll above a 3 (92% of outcomes) gives at least 2 holds with no consequence so there is little risk in doing this.
I could impose some kind of arbitrary penalty like "it takes a few seconds to shapeshift and you are vulnerable in this time" but then I'm just house-ruling to punish the druid...
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If he only has 1 hold in the middle of combat, sure he rips out one throat.Then what? Whether he has time to transform again before they stab him or drop a big rock on his head is an open question. And that one time he rolls a miss during combat? Whoah nelly! That's gonna leave a mark.
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Thanks for your help again. I feel much better prepared. I MC my first game of DW tomorrow night so I hope it goes well!
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Maybe I misunderstand again. There is no limit to the amount of times a druid may shapeshift so he can easily say "ok i use my holds to become human again" *do thing that needs thumbs "Ok I turn back into a wolf'' roll 2d6 "ok i remove throat". Any roll above a 3 (92% of outcomes) gives at least 2 holds with no consequence so there is little risk in doing this.
As others have noted, nothing says you have to give them an easy no-consequences de-throating every single time they act; maybe you tear out the first orc's throat and then the others are a little more cautious and you have to do a DD or H&S roll to pull it off.
Every roll is a chance, however small, of a miss. Having WIS +3 means having some other stat at +0, maybe the stat you needed your thumbs for. No mistake, shapeshift is *very* powerful, but like every other powerful move in DW, eventually your hero's going to biff the roll.
No mistake, shapeshift is a very powerful move.
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As others have noted, nothing says you have to give them an easy no-consequences de-throating every single time they act; maybe you tear out the first orc's throat and then the others are a little more cautious and you have to do a DD or H&S roll to pull it off.
This is how I intend on handling it, thanks for your helpful comments.
I do not really understand why the druid has such arbitrary rules which are in total conflict with how every other class is handled but I am willing to give it a shot and see how it goes.
Every roll is a chance, however small, of a miss. Having WIS +3 means having some other stat at +0, maybe the stat you needed your thumbs for. No mistake, shapeshift is *very* powerful, but like every other powerful move in DW, eventually your hero's going to biff the roll.
No mistake, shapeshift is a very powerful move.
I think it's one of the coolest moves in the system. I just wan't to make sure the other 3 people at the table are having fun and that that everyone else doesn't take a backseat to the druid.
I really want to make every character shine.
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I really want to make every character shine.
Here's another thing to consider. While DW doesn't have a strict turn-taking system, it's pretty natural to alternate between asking one PC what they're doing, giving them one move, then narrating what's changed in the fictional positioning as a result, then going to another PC. But the GM is also free to play around with the rhythm and put the spotlight wherever he wants. If you feel like the Druid is exploiting Shapeshifter too much, you can simply do this:
"Blah blah orcs appear blah blah charging you. Wildroot, what do you do?"
"I shapeshift into wolf form! That's... 5, plus 3... 8, so I hold two."
"Great! Your body twists and reshapes and flows and you're a snarling grey wolf. The orc nearest you stops in his tracks, amazed at your transformation, and raises his shield defensively. (Addressing the Thief--) Tinyfeets, that guy's completely focused on the wolf and doesn't even see you, what do you do?"
In other words, the Druid has to spend a "beat" (in chess terminology, "lose a tempo") to "charge up" his powerful moves. I wouldn't do this all the time because the next PC to act might undermine the Druid's plans, which if it happens a lot would be frustrating, but it's a simple way to make sure each character gets a chance to shine.
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Excellent advice. Thank you
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right way
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I used to worry about the way there was no limit to the number of times a character could use a move like Shapeshift or Cure Light Wounds or Fireball. But the better I get at GMing this game, the less of a problem it is, because I've learned how to make my players afraid of the failure. With a +3, maybe they'll only fail one time in 10 or so, but oh, how badly I can make them regret a fumble at the wrong time.
It's a magical transformation of your entire body – *anything* could go wrong. Get stuck in animal form with no hold for moves. Shatter some gear and get stuck with it wrapped around you. Get wracked by pain and end up temporarily helpless on the ground. Get the wrong form entirely (hello mouse). Get the form *too* well, so you're overcome by animal urges and forget your human goals. Get a geas from the Powers of Nature to do what *they* need.
As DM, find the result that makes them groan, "oh no, of *course* that would happen!" If it fits in the fiction and doesn't take anyone too far out of the game, anything is fair game. They picked up the dice, so they knew it could happen.
You want players to think twice any time they pick up the dice. It's the key to making this game shine, and IMHO, the biggest reason you would choose to play it over regular D&D. Whatever you're doing, it can *always* go wrong.
(You've probably also found by now that the Druid is far from the only character with a powerful move that can mow down mooks. Not many ordinary goblins are walking away from contact with the Fighter or the Barbarian either.)