Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: SarahNewton on January 04, 2013, 11:39:33 AM
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Hi folks,
I'm a new member of the forums and a Dungeon World n00b - I've played two sessions so far. Last session we had a scene where the PCs were chasing a bunch of fleeing, non-fighty orcs to prevent them from warning a bunch of giants about their presence, and I got a bit stumped for how to run a chase scene using the DW rules. I was looking for something a bit crunchy, but the only move which seemed even remotely applicable was Defy Danger, with the "danger" being the giants got warned. That seemed a bit lame - I ended up allowing the PCs do each do damage once before the orcs got to the giants, taking out as many as they could in a single move.
Still didn't feel right. How do you run chases in DW?
Cheers,
Sarah
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Yeh, i must admit i was surprised that there wasn't a move for chases as well, considering its a staple of almost every game session.
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I would a defy danger with a stat appropfiate to the fiction. 10+ you can close/ attack if.close enough, 7-9 you are just keeping up/ attck if close enough but fall behind after, 6- you fall behind.
Give them a short but reasonable amount of fictional time before their prey gets to where tgey are going.
in essence improvise
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Hi! Welcome to the DW forums, glad to have you about.
My advice would be to NOT think of different 'scene mechanics' for various common fantasy adventure tropes. Think your specific story instead.
Thus, its not a generic chase scene, its the intrepid heroes desperately trying to chase (and presumably thwart) the orcs from warning their giant allies yes? Just keep having the conversation until a move crops up...
Defy Danger is a great all round 'big picture' move that could encapsulate that scene with one roll as you've described, but you could also zoom in... What do the PC's want out of the scene? Ask lots of provocative questions, announce impending doom, address specific characters with immediate issues / problems and ask 'what do you do?'.
That way you can break the action up into immediate, consequential moves, where each roll can lead to all sorts of outcomes and possibilities for you to make moves as GM and the players to respond to the unfolding situation in different ways. You know as GM that the orcs are trying to warn the giants, and presumably the players do to (since they are chasing them) as you've revealed an unwelcome truth, so as they get the leap on the monsters and scarper after them, maybe you tell them the consequences and ask?
'Ok so you pelt after the orcsies, but they cunningly split into two bands, obviously trying to confound you! Smart little buggers! What do you do?' - This could lead to Discern Realities or Spout Lore or some kind of playbook move, which then steamrolls with the moves snowball...
Or maybe you change the dungeon environment, or present riches at a price? Describing the orcs sprinting past a treasure trove on their way to the giants... The PC's can stop and fill their pockets, but the orcs will surely have alerted their giant companions by then... What do you do?
Just follow the fiction, rather than trying to make a move 'fit' a mechanical generality (such as a chase). If you want more 'crunch', just zoom a little and make the consequences as hard as you like each and every time.
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The problem with ju following fiction is that the players know they will catch them as long as they don't get distracted.
Uncertain results add tension.
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I agree, it really depends on the context, but also what the PCs want out of the chase. Splitting the group of orcs is a great way to challenge the PCs (as well as Use Up Their Resources/Separate Them). Other things to think about are things that change the dynamics of the immediate situation, like what if some of the orcs turn to fight while the rest keep going (knowing that they'll likely die to help their allies get through)? Or maybe the orcs start throwing obstacles in their way? Look at chase scenes from movies and literature for ideas. Look for moves within those and try to read what the conversation between the parties involved is.
As I've become more familiar with running DW, one of the things that I'm starting to do more and more (to some increasing benefit) is to snowball my moves. I don't choose to deal damage as often as I used to, instead I set up something for the future. Notably this helps for when the PCs roll 10+ and I can't necessarily turn something back on them in the moment. Instead I get to pull from something I've already insinuated into the narrative (Reveal an Unwelcome Truth/Signs of an Approaching Threat) to keep things interesting. Maybe they've just barely succeeded in squeezing through a tight spot in a crowd, and hear the crash of steel on stone. There's no obvious evidence of what that was in the chase, but eventually they may find out it was the portcullis closing ahead of them, forcing them to get inventive in how they handle it, and all legitimately explained ahead of time.
And yeah, the players should know that they'll catch the ones they're chasing, but it doesn't mean the characters know, or that they won't have to get creative in order to make it happen. We still need to be fans of the characters, but it doesn't mean it has to be easy.
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Thanks for the replies, everyone. :-)
Yeah, I get that we could "just" resolve everything in the fiction. In the same way, we could "just" resolve fight scenes, or parleys, or whatever, in the fiction, too, without ever making recourse to the dice. However, the dice are there to add excitement, tension, or unexpected results to a situation.
Now, I wouldn't call a chase a mere mechanical generality; they're a dramatic staple of fiction of all types, and rightly so; they're exciting, dramatic, cinematic. So, without adding lots of distracting deviations from the core element, I'm trying to consider a way a PC could stop an NPC from running away, catch them up, etc. The mirror of Defy Danger.
I guess in a sense there's a top-level, unnamed "Stop the NPC!" type move "above" moves like Hack & Slash and Volley, both of which aim to 'stop' an NPC using STR or DEX. You could certainly use Volley to stop the fleeing orcs in my example. So perhaps my "Stop them Orcs!" is an instance of this; I could likewise imagine doing a kind of "Stop the NPC" Move using INT to represent fast talking an NPC into silence, using CHA to represent winning an NPC's favour (not simply Parley), and so on. I'd use STR to wrestle an opponent to the ground (one possible option for the chase sequence, depending on the narration), DEX to run and tackle someone, even CON if it was a long-distance chase where endurance, etc, was a factor.
For results, I'd probably go with:
10+ : you achieve your goal, stopping the NPC
7-9 : you're making progress, or you achieve your goal, but at cost (soft move, such as you attract attention, drop some gear, incur a -1 forward, etc). This implies, like Volley and Hack & Slash, that the move may be repeated, narrative depending - that's kind of nice, as it plays to the attritional nature of chases without being overwhelming. There may also be some mileage in putting some choices in here, as with Volley.
6- : your quarry eludes you, or you catch them but they attack (narrative depending, probably a hard move)
I'm thinking that kind of "Stop the NPC" notional move might easily translate into improvised moves like "Pursue", "Debate", etc. Like I say, kind of like Volley or even Hack & Slash, but without the HP damage. :)
EDIT: thinking about this some more, I guess the "Stop the NPC!"-type move is actually a version of the Aid / Interfere move, but where the target is an NPC rather than another PC. It might be interesting to tackle it like that, especially as it implies there's also an "Aid the NPC!" side to it, too. :)
Cheers,
Sarah
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The thing is, a chase is never a flat-out race. You have to look to the danger. Find the danger, and you'll find the challenge. Often these will require Defy Danger to overcome, but not always.
Think about what intelligent humanoids would do to prevent people from catching up, think about the dangers the players could face during their chase:- Danger of Getting Lost: Could be a labyrinth, a series of caves, the back-alleys of a major city, the twisty paths in a dark forest. As long as the prey knows the terrain better than the PCs, they can lead the PCs on a merry chase and lose them. Usually the players will Defy Danger using Int to keep track of them and not loose sight of them, but one could also Spout Lore about shortcuts, and a Ranger can make great use of his Tracking
- Danger of Getting Hurt: Could be traps the humanoids know about that the PCs don't, could be collapsing ceilings, dislodged stacks of barrels. Anything that will injure the players, whether its the prey's doing or just something happening at the same time. The players will have to dodge or plow through these dangers, Defying Danger with Strength or Dexterity, though creative spellwork could also come in handy.
- Danger of Getting Bogged Down:This might be a bridge the prey cut/burned behind them, a dense crowd getting in the way, a bunch of tangled roots and brambles, rising waters, etc. This is especially useful if the enemies are more adept at navigating the terrain than the PCs (i.e. chasing lizardmen in a swamp or thieves in a busy marketplace). Defying Danger with Strength or Constitution would be called for in most cases, though Charisma could be used in the case of crowds, as the Paladin's I Am The Law to get people to get the heck out of the way.
There are surely other dangers, too. The point is, it's the GMs job to provide challenges/dangers, to antagonize the players. A flat-out race over a straightaway is gonna be dull. A clambering, weaving and barreling chase through narrow, winding city streets, under carts and over fences and through crowds while crates are dropped and pack animals are untethered to stampede in the street... that's a chase.
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I've done a single chase scene while running DW so far, but it was the reverse of your situation, SarahNewton; the characters were trying to get away from a pack of Winter Wolves. There were on only one or two Defy Danger moves resulting in misses, and the characters got surrounded. Oops. Although your situation is different, I don't really think you need to create a custom move (although I too love making them), as Defy Danger already covers everything your Stop the NPC move does.
Basing the custom move on the Aid/Interfere move works too, but unless the character has a Bond with the entity they're chasing, the player will always just roll+0. That's not a bad thing, it just seems harsh to me (like the Last Breath move). Also, as NPCs never roll dice, you have to find another way to give them the bonus or penalty that might result from the move. Monsterhearts does this well with it's Advantage/Disadvantage mechanics.
I'd also respectfully disagree with AmPm and samuraiko a bit. The players shouldn't know that they will catch the Orcs simply because you're leaving it to the fiction. If the fiction dictates that the PCs will catch the Orcs with little to no trouble, then why have the chase scene at all? If, for example, the GM has described the Orcs as being heavily wounded or otherwise slowed down, then the GM could just narrate the characters catching up with the Orcs and go from there. The chase isn't important. What is important is what happens next. If you really wanted to make a move, Defy Danger could be used to see how well the Orcs prepare themselves (if at all) before the PCs get within striking range.
Conversely, if the Orcs have been described as being excellent trackers and woodsmen or being in territory they know well, then they'll probably get away from the PCs if left to the fiction. That's where another Defy Danger move can be used as the characters attempt to find shortcuts, predict where the Orcs are headed, or just try to put on an extra burst of speed. My point is, you don't know who is going to win the chase, unless you've established that one side or the other has a commanding advantage. Play to find out what happens, remember?
Also, as Archangel3d said, chases are rarely just a simple race. There's all kinds of dangers and problems to deal with. noofy is dead on with the suggestion to "zoom". You could resolve a week long chase with a single Defy Danger move, or you could zoom way in and have characters make moves for each "comic book frame". What dictates the "scope" of the action is player enjoyment. Sometimes we want to see each and every little thing that happens, other times we want to get right to the resolution.
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I'd mostly handle it like Noofy said: stay focused on the fiction, asking specific players what they do and letting the moves flow naturally from they're responses. Sprinkle that with a liberal amount of GM setup moves (telling requirements or consequences and asking, showing signs of approaching threats, showing downsides of class/race/gear, using monster/danger/location moves, etc.), and you've got a good chase scene.
With that said, I find the wording of Defy Danger to sometimes leave me hanging on the 7-9 results. Here are a couple custom moves that might be helpful & evocative in a chase scene:
When you race against time, roll +Int (if you're thinking quickly) or +Dex (if you're acting quickly). On a 10+, you make it with time to spare. On a 7-9, there's not a moment to lose. The GM will present a final obstacle, threat, or cost. Deal with it or let time run out.
When you pursue your quarry, describe how you do it and roll. If you do it...
...with agility and fleetness of foot, roll +Dex
...through dogged endurance, roll +Con
...by following the signs of their passage, roll +Wis
...by asking around after them, roll +Cha
On a 10+, you corner your prey or catch them in the open. On a 7-9, the GM picks one:
--You've almost got them, but there's an intervening obstacle or challenge
--They've gone to ground; you know where they are but it's a challenge to get to them
--They turn unexpectedly and attack
Note that neither of these "stop the NPC." You might race against time to get to the doorway before the orcs can run through it, or to get within fighting range before they reach their giant allies. But once you do that, you still have to say *how* you prevent the orcs from continuing to flee. Stab them? Shoot at them? Tackle them? Parley?
If you think about chase scenes that *don't* involve one side getting away, they always end with some kind of confrontation or conflict. The chase just gets the pursuer close enough to force that confrontation.
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Letting the fiction entirely determine what's going to happen is basically just GM fiat. At that point why even have rolls? Just determine it all with the fiction.
I like a healthy balance of die rolls and narrative. Situation example "Ok, the orcs split up, what do you do", players split up, "Alright, you split up to chase the orcs, some head for the kitchen the others head towards a guard tower." Players respond with narrative that ends with dead orcs. Done, chase over. OR you can toss in a die roll, that way they can fail and NOT feel cheated by your decision that they should get caught, and if you are going to just let them win anyway, whats the point of playing since there is no challenge.
Now I know my opinion doesn't have to be yours, and that's fine. We have our own tables. But I would much prefer a setup like this.
"The orcs take off in different directions, some head straight for the kitchen doors, the others run off towards a guard tower. What do you do."
Players, "We split up and chase them" Insert descriptive narrative about their attempts. "Ok, roll *insert skill*. Well, looks like you catch up to the orcs running toward the guard tower, however only one of you chasing the orcs toward the kitchen manages to catch up to them, what do you do?"
What follows is probably some Volley/Hack'n'Slash/spellslinging or if no resistance just killing them from behind. It adds some unknown and chance to the situation making it, in my opinion, more interesting. Obviously for longer chases involving more variables you should have more rolls. Defy Danger to avoid barrels or low hanging branches, to cross rivers, jump gorges, jump horses over things, etc.
What a game should never be is entirely decided by the GM or the players.
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"The orcs take off in different directions, some head straight for the kitchen doors, the others run off towards a guard tower. What do you do."
Players, "We split up and chase them" Insert descriptive narrative about their attempts. "Ok, roll *insert skill*. Well, looks like you catch up to the orcs running toward the guard tower, however only one of you chasing the orcs toward the kitchen manages to catch up to them, what do you do?"
Why not just have the GM use their moves according to the GM principles? "Okay, you go tearing off after the two orcs that bolted for the kitchens. Florian, you can definitely catch them if you sprint but Baldor's heavy chain is going to slow him down some. Do you go after them full bore, or keep the group together?" And "Augustine, so you're in hot pursuit of the two that ran down the stairs. Suddenly from further down the corridor you hear the steady beat of the goblin war drums. Heartened, the two orcs start calling out to their brethren and pick up speed. Do you give chase?" Or "Avon, you run after the Orc as he heads deeper into the labyrinthine tunnels. After a number of twists you're not sure you you know the way back to the others. You're lost and alone in the goblin kingdom. But on the bright side, you're definitely gaining on that puny Orc. Do you keep going deeper into the dungeon?"
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The thing is, a chase is never a flat-out race. You have to look to the danger. Find the danger, and you'll find the challenge. Often these will require Defy Danger to overcome, but not always.
The thing is, sometimes a chase is a flat-out race. :D In the example which cropped up in our game, it was exactly that: there was no danger of getting lost, getting hurt, or getting bogged down; we simply needed to determine whether the PCs were able to catch up with the orcs (and maybe force a fight) before they alerted the giants. As simple as that. It literally was a very long corridor with a door at the end, and the PCs chasing the orcs. The chase *was* the challenge.
Sure, I could have tried throw lots of other stuff at them, split them up, had bad guys turn up, have the orcs turn and fight instead of run away, trying to turn the fiction into something else which I knew the rules coped with, but that felt really bogus, like I was rewriting the scenario and the locations and not allowing a certain set of events to occur because the rules had a blind spot. Saying, "no, we can't narrate it that way, the rules don't support it" is not my preferred way to play an RPG. ;-)
Now, as I said, I *could* have re-phrased the fiction so that the PCs were trying to stop the orcs before the giants saw them. That *kind of* works, although it's a bit funky and feels like I'm fudging the narrative to fit the rules. That would have been a straight Defy Danger roll, although at the time it felt a bit too meta: the danger was the giants finding out they were there because the orcs had told them because the PCs hadn't been able to stop them... ;-)
So, I don't think the DW rules do have a blind spot; I just think the kind of action where the PCs are stopping the NPCs from doing something isn't explicit in the current rules book, unless you zoom out so much to find an eventual Danger to Defy that the action you wanted to handle becomes somewhat irrelevant anyway - *except* of course for physical combat and class moves such as magic, etc - and, like HyveMynd says, when it's the other way round (PCs escaping from NPCs), Defy Danger works fine anyway. It's a bit like how there's a thief move for *detecting and disabling* traps, but not setting them ("attacking" using a trap - although there is a thief move for creating poisons...) Those areas where the rules are explicit clearly use dice rolls to resolve; so why not those areas where they're not explicit? Hell, I don't think it's even a custom move - it's simply something currently not explicitly covered but which is implied. Jeremy's "Race against Time" and "Pursue Your Quarry" moves cover the same ground as the notional, top-level "Stop the NPCs' Move" I was wondering about being "behind" Volley, Hack & Slash, etc, so it's clearly something that's cropped up in other games. I think it's a useful Move to have in the GM arsenal for instances like this, rather than forcing the fiction to be something else.
Cheers,
Sarah
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"The orcs take off in different directions, some head straight for the kitchen doors, the others run off towards a guard tower. What do you do."
Players, "We split up and chase them" Insert descriptive narrative about their attempts. "Ok, roll *insert skill*. Well, looks like you catch up to the orcs running toward the guard tower, however only one of you chasing the orcs toward the kitchen manages to catch up to them, what do you do?"
Why not just have the GM use their moves according to the GM principles? "Okay, you go tearing off after the two orcs that bolted for the kitchens. Florian, you can definitely catch them if you sprint but Baldor's heavy chain is going to slow him down some. Do you go after them full bore, or keep the group together?" And "Augustine, so you're in hot pursuit of the two that ran down the stairs. Suddenly from further down the corridor you hear the steady beat of the goblin war drums. Heartened, the two orcs start calling out to their brethren and pick up speed. Do you give chase?" Or "Avon, you run after the Orc as he heads deeper into the labyrinthine tunnels. After a number of twists you're not sure you you know the way back to the others. You're lost and alone in the goblin kingdom. But on the bright side, you're definitely gaining on that puny Orc. Do you keep going deeper into the dungeon?"
That only works if you have already established that his chain does slow him down, or that for some reason you are chasing a lone orc through goblin infested tunnels. Sometimes, you just don't want a scout to get away to warn others, even if they are miles away.
Writing a narrative that is either counter to earlier fiction or just doesn't make sense to fit a lack of rules is just stupid. Also, leather is apparently as heavy as chain and as effective. I'm not going to make a chain wearing player slower simply because that is the fictional look he had on his character sheet instead of the equally effective leather. Even worse, if you look at the rules your average fighter can carry a load of 28 before getting slowed down at all, so why is that armor that weighs at most, 1/7th of his typical load BEFORE he even feels the effects now suddenly slowing him up?
A similar situation would be using 1 Hack'n'Slash roll to determine if you win or lose an encounter.
I think that in this kind of an instance you need to have a roll, just because the game is a narrative game does not mean I or the players should know every outcome.
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I don't agree that you have to establish that a big guy in chain runs slower than some nimble dude in light armor before you make a move. And the details I provided were just my details out of my head. Your game will be filled with your details derived from the fiction you've created.
But none of that's really the point. The point is DW handles chases just fine. There's no gap in the rules. You don't need a custom move for it, unless that excites you. Chases come up a lot and Dungeon World handles them the way it handles all character actions. Depending upon whats already in the fiction it will either be a move (frex Defy Danger) or it wont. If it triggers a move the GM calls for a roll, if not, there's a lull in the conversation where everyone is looking at the GM to say what happens next. The text says that's the GM's time to step up with a move, following GM principles, that fulfills the GM's agenda.
Here's a custom chase move: When you give chase where theres no danger being defied and the GM can't be arsed to make a move but the players are keen on leaving it up to chance, Roll+Dex. On a 10+ you catch em no problem. On a 7-9 you can catch em but you have to buy the GM a beer. On a miss, flip a coin but you're buying the GM a beer either way.
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James is succinct and wise. His suggestions are far from stupid and make perfect fictional sense. Have a roleplaying conversation, if a situation comes up that triggers a move, you make it. Do do it, do it yeah?
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I never said you need to make a customer move, you could, it doesn't change the mechanics of the game at all.
What I am saying is that you need to force rolls if you want an intensive chase. You can't just say, well, you are faster than this guy, you catch him. There should be some roll+dex/str/con/int rolls in there, no matter if you call it a Defy Danger if the move results in something outside the norm it's pretty much a custom move.
No high intensity player/npc scene should be played out in only 1 roll. Zooming out is for things like how well do you traverse a section of field. Like a perilous journey, if the players decide to route things over a gorge or river or up a cliff there should be a scene for that. A travel montage if you will. Same goes for a chase scene, you should go clip to clip to clip at a high pace focusing on the actions of each character in pursuit of the target. This means multiple rolls over the course of the chase.
I'm also curious how you can say a man in chain with an incredible strength who is very used to wearing it will be slower than someone else, perhaps wearing leather which weighs the same who might naturally be a slower runner. Those are all up to player description of their characters and are arbitrary.
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Why are you interested in my hypothetical big guy in heavy armor and how fast he can hypothetically run? Seems to be a distraction.
I'm totally interested in discussing DW and how it handles chases. For example, I think you can get plenty of intensity from the GM following the Agenda Make the characters' lives not boring, with moves like Take away their stuff, Put someone in a tight spot, Announce future trouble, Activate their stuff’s downside, Inflict the natural consequences of their actions, Use up resources. If the players trigger a move, of course the GM should call for a roll. But if what the players do isn't a move, the GM isn't required to make them roll for something, they've got tons of their own moves to jack up the intensity.
But if you've got examples of cool intense chases that resulted from forcing rolls in DW, I'm all ears.
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noclue neatly summed up what I was trying to articulate before; that leaving the decision of who wins up to the fiction doesn't automatically mean that the PCs will win. You're supposed to "Play to find out what happens" and to "Fill the characters' lives with adventure". Additionally, as the GM you're allowed to "disclaim decision-making" as stated in the Apocalypse World book.
Also, I don't think that anyone is saying to ignore previously established fiction, AmPm. If it's already been established that one side is indeed faster/slower than the other then, unless something changes in the fiction, in my opinion it makes perfect sense for that side to win/lose. No one's saying to suddenly make the Fighter's chain hauberk heavier than it's been before, or to have the Orcs magically sprout wing on their feet and be as fast as the Flash. Sometimes you just have to make up stuff on the spot that hasn't been established yet. Has the Fighter been in a footrace while wearing chainmail before? If not than I don't see it being a problem to have them Defy Danger with either STR or CON to keep up. Again, this all circles back to the "Fill the characters' lives with adventure" agenda. If the action being taken doesn't have any possible chance of danger either a) you aren't looking hard enough, or b) the action isn't worth making a move over.
All that being said, if it's been established that the PCs and the Orcs are both relatively the same speed and the Orcs have a huge lead down a perfectly featureless hallway, I don't see the PCs having much of a chance to catch up.
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GM: "The orcs run down the corridor, you know tehre are giants ont he other end, what do you do?"
Players: "We stop them!"
GM: "Ok, how are you gonna do that?"
Ranger Player: "I take a shot at them as they go."
Fighter Player: "I run to catch them, hacking any I come near"
Wizard Player: "I cast sleep on the furthermost."
Thief Player: "I go with [Fighter], throwing daggers when I get a chance.
GM: "Ok, the ranger's arrows and the wizard's spells will determine how many orcs will remain for the chase, so we will resolve those first.
In this case you got two players chasing, two attacking. Wizard rolls casts a spell, Ranger uses volley or called shot (I would go with this one here), Fighter and Thief roll defy danger, I would go with Dex for both.
For the defy danger rolls my stakes would be:
10+ The fighter and the thief reach the orcs, I would allow them to describe how they are attacking and see how fiction goes from there, depending on how many orcs are left.
7-9 The party stops the orc right as they open the door / shout out for help/ reach the giants, depending on how the warning will be given.
6- The orcs that remain outrun the party, warning the giants.
You can make a lot more rolls for larger chases, but defy danger here works for me. The structure of the mvoe is kinda simple:
Danger they want/need to avoid: The orcs warn the giants
How they are doing it: by acting fast (+Dex)
Changing the scenario is only a bad choice if the players already know how it is, otherwise it is just you making things more interesting, you don't have a commitment to your prep, but with the fun of the game, whatever is already established though, should not be changed.
In general chase scenes are always at the danger of loosing your mark, if you want to zoom to micromanage then you can even make a simple system of counts and tell those to the players: any character who scores a 6- on a chase action (defy danger) or doesn't chase looses a point toward the mark, they can take another action but any 10+ is treated as 7-9, any who roll 10+ while chasing gets a point and can take an action if they want, without chance of being slowed down unless they stop running (they can get creative on trying to stop the mark), on a 7-9 they don't get closer and can take an action, the new action can slow them down on a failure)
They get to -3 they lost the mark, they get to +3 they catch the mark.
In this scenario they would be rolling defy danger every time they don't stop running, and they could take other actions like cast spells, throw things, shoot arrows, try to get above or below the mark and so on.
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roll defy danger, I would go with Dex for both.
For the defy danger rolls my stakes would be:
10+ The fighter and the thief reach the orcs, I would allow them to describe how they are attacking and see how fiction goes from there, depending on how many orcs are left.
7-9 The party stops the orc right as they open the door / shout out for help/ reach the giants, depending on how the warning will be given.
6- The orcs that remain outrun the party, warning the giants.
Total agreement. And Defy Danger with Dex works perfectly fine with the situation you've created because you're making moves that follow from the fiction (is that in DW or am I pulling in an Apocalypse World principal?). Although, keeping in mind the Defy Danger move, remember that on a 10+ the characters take +1 forward into the fight with the orcs and on a 7-9, you can choose from:
You expose yourself to danger
You’re knocked down, surrounded, or cut off
You’re forced to make a hard choice
So, you need not stop with just the opening of the door. You can let the players know just what kind of shit they've gotten themselves into. Do they have a choice to make? Are the giants right there and ready to make with the gigantic smack down? Are they lying sprawled on the ground with a swarm of orcs around them? so many good choices...
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Yeah, I was a bit generic because I didn't have more information about the fiction, but the fiction would not stop. ever.
My idea of the 7-9 is that the giants are warned to something, but creativity might even put them out of alert.
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I'm curious when we all started to think Dex = speed...kinda like Strength =/= Bulk
Completely off topic but interesting to note.
Anyway, so basically you suggest using Defy Danger with custom consequences based on the scenario....so the exact same thing as a custom move based on a stat of choice with an outcome that fits the fiction...
AKA: The exact same thing as just making up a move for it.
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Eh, if you want to look at it that way AmPm, that's fine. But as written the Defy Danger move is already open ended. The 10+ result is "You do what you set out to, or the threat doesn't come to bear." The fictional result will always be "customized" based on the situation that triggered the Defy Danger move. The text of the move even calls out the fact that this is a catch-all move for "when it seems like you clearly should be rolling but no other move applies."
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Fair enough. I discounted Defy Danger in my original post 'cos it seemed too much of a zoom out for the immediate fiction - too meta, like resolving a whole combat in a single roll - but if that's the only real solution I can handle it. Basically you're redefining DD to be generic contest resolution - full success, partial success, fail - which is as AmPm says the same as a custom move. Imagine the same situation without the giants, the 'danger' being 'the orcs get away', and it's clear can the 'danger' doesn't need to be dangerous at all - it's just 'you fail at what you're trying to do'.
I think that's pretty much what I've been gleaning from play - if there's no clear move, roll 10+ for complete success, etc. I was originally looking for something a little more attritional for chases, hence the 7-9 result upthread.
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I'm curious when we all started to think Dex = speed...kinda like Strength =/= Bulk
Well, I took the act fast choice for choosing Dex straight from the rules written in defy danger, specially because they are not defined in DW aside from that move in particular.
Completely off topic but interesting to note.
Anyway, so basically you suggest using Defy Danger with custom consequences based on the scenario....so the exact same thing as a custom move based on a stat of choice with an outcome that fits the fiction...
I think my advice is more akin to use a move that is done and ready to use instead of spending time to create a custom move that will work for a single situation or get so generic it will end up being defy danger written for chases, meaning two moves that do the exact same thing.
But if you prefer to have a specific move for this, go for it, I just don't see the need to make a move that I already perceive as existing in the game, that is all.
AKA: The exact same thing as just making up a move for it.
Yup, the exact same thing, so, why make a new move then.
Fair enough. I discounted Defy Danger in my original post 'cos it seemed too much of a zoom out for the immediate fiction - too meta, like resolving a whole combat in a single roll - but if that's the only real solution I can handle it.
My suggestion of using a given number of "counters" is directed at the notion that you can only use defy danger to completely resolve an entire situation, this kind of zoom in will work great for some situations, and how hard you want it to be is how many counters they need to accumulate.
It is not built in the rules, mind you, but very little rules have that kind of counting in the system, and I have used and seen it used quite frequently.
Basically you're redefining DD to be generic contest resolution - full success, partial success, fail - which is as AmPm says the same as a custom move. Imagine the same situation without the giants, the 'danger' being 'the orcs get away', and it's clear can the 'danger' doesn't need to be dangerous at all - it's just 'you fail at what you're trying to do'.
I don't see myself redefining anything, in a system when I need to create an ad hoc rule I usually look for similar rules, I suppose most people do the same, Defy Danger doesn't write itself for this kind of situation, but is easily used in it, if a custom move would just have the same structure I prefer to avoid the time spent on a new rule when I can just tag one the players and myself are familiar with and it can solve things well.
I think that's pretty much what I've been gleaning from play - if there's no clear move, roll 10+ for complete success, etc. I was originally looking for something a little more attritional for chases, hence the 7-9 result upthread.
The system is not meant to prolong specific actions, and I can see how that can become a problem, it is entirely based on the idea of failure generates a new situation, incomplete success and success changes things, as you say.
The 7-9 options upthread are nice, but the entire move there seems like a specific instance of defy danger, the 10+ result also resolves the entire sequence, the 7-9 follows up into the chase and the 6- ends with an unsuccessful chase or a successful one, something I find mind boggling.
By using the counters idea I effectively created more attrition, moving out of the one roll solve it all part, you can look at it as hp applied to a scene, the characters are burning the hp when they succeed and the opposition is healing the hp when the party fails.
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I treat Defy Danger exactly like the Act Under Fire move in Apocalypse World.
Whenever a character does something that obviously demands a roll, but you don’t quite see how to deal with it, double check first whether it counts as doing something under fire. Come here first.
On a 7–9, when it comes to the worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice, you’ll need to look at the circumstances and find something fun. It should be easy to find something; if there weren’t things to go wrong, nobody’d be rolling dice.
That last emphasis is mine. If there really and truly is no danger or consequence being risked, then you probably don't need to require a move at all.
You could absolutely use a single Defy Danger move to resolve the entire chase if that's what you want to do. It totally works, as the danger being defied in that case is 'the Orcs get away'. If that's too "zoomed out for you" you could break the chases into several smaller legs, each requiring a separate Defy Danger move. There's no right answer here other than which one you prefer. It's worth pointing out though, that each Defy Danger move you require for the chase needs to have some sort of consequence. It could be as nebulous as 'the Orcs are farther down the hallway' as Nifelhein suggests, or it could be something like 'you need to drop item X to keep up'.
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I say this a little differently. With each Defy Danger roll either they Defy the danger no prob., or the GM chooses from the list, or the GM has an opportunity to make a move of their liking. What that means is, If you want to have a lot of DDs, you just don't setup the danger as "the orcs get away" where a 10+ means they don't. Let the players chase the orcs and then throw dangers at them to be defied.
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If you don't want to zoom out, then don't zoom out.
Describe the situation. Be specific. Ask what they do. Stay zoomed in, moment to moment. When there's danger (of harm, missed opportunity, loss of position, etc.), ask what they do, then roll Defy. They deal with that specific danger, which colors how the chase is going, what opportunities remain, etc. etc.
In other words, the danger doesn't have to be "they get away" if you don't want to zoom out like that. Chase scenes are full of lots of little dangerous moments and split-second outcomes. Stay zoomed in and let the chase develop organically. When they defy any danger, they roll it.
Novices think this is just "rolling defy danger over and over again" but it isn't. It's the GM saying what's happening, the players saying what the characters do, and moves being triggered by the fiction -- not because the GM is "calling for a roll to resolve it" the way you do in some other games.
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Although, keeping in mind the Defy Danger move, remember that on a 10+ the characters take +1 forward into the fight with the orcs and on a 7-9, you can choose from:
You expose yourself to danger
You’re knocked down, surrounded, or cut off
You’re forced to make a hard choice
Wow, not sure what version of DW I pulled up on this one. I blame sleep deprivation! That and playing to many beta versions and other AW hacks. Oops!
Anyway, the point remains the same. The GM still has wonderful choices on a 7-9.
And +1 on what John said.
Edit: Yeah, I will hang my head in shame now. That version of Defy Danger dates back to Tony Dowler's Dungeon World.
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John Harper nails it. If you and your players aren't interested in the chase, it could be a single Defy roll. Or you can zoom in with multiple rolls; just make sure to mix up the threats and the stats you're targeting (of course the player's response dictates the Stat, but sometimes you're obviously aiming for one).
There's an obstacle, can you leap it to save time?!
You've stumbled into rough terrain, can you push through?!
Now you're running uphill and it's exhausting, can you endure?!
Oh no, the path forks, can you figure out which way they went?!
That can be one chase sequence, right there. Each result dictates which group gains ground. I love a good chase scene and I like to break them up into mini-encounters; a series of problems to overcome with the goal being your quarry.
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Yeah, you can do it that way.
But my advice is to not think of it as a set of obstacles. Just say what's happening and ask what they do. When a move is triggered, roll it. Get out of the "obstacles" and encounters GM-mode.
Describe the environment, say what the monsters do, ask what the players do. Repeat. It's organic and flowing and the GM doesn't have to manage it or make it work out into a "chase sequence" or whatever.
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This is slightly unrelated but I was reading Harper's post about "novices worrying about rolling Defy over and over" and I gotta say this is totally true. My players cracked some jokes about overusing the move, so I started just telling the players "Roll +Stat" instead of calling it Defy Danger. The jokes stopped and everyone got back into the game fiction a little more. Presentation makes a big difference. Just like a player should never say "I Hack&Slash," sometimes the GM should just name a Stat and then give them results. I found it helpful... and if you're embroiled in a chase then you might too.
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Yeah, that's a good technique.
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It also makes the system totally transparent for people and I watched a few epiphanies happen. The whole system is literally just "when you do a thing, roll the most applicable stat" at the core. Some moves happen to be pre-written because they'll come up so often, but every move is, in essence, just rolling the stat that makes the most sense.
I mean, it seems obvious but I've watched multiple people be all "wait a minute... I get it" with big goofy grins suddenly lighting up.
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It is obvious, but is not how many systems work, so that is probably why.
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Just read through this thread as I found it very interesting. To me, there was one thing that stood out in your discussion, Sarah.
The thing is, sometimes a chase is a flat-out race. :D In the example which cropped up in our game, it was exactly that: there was no danger of getting lost, getting hurt, or getting bogged down; we simply needed to determine whether the PCs were able to catch up with the orcs (and maybe force a fight) before they alerted the giants. As simple as that. It literally was a very long corridor with a door at the end, and the PCs chasing the orcs. The chase *was* the challenge.
To me, given the above description of the situation, there doesn't seem to be a need for more rules to resolve the challenge. While there is certainly some excitement in finding out whether or not the heroes catch the orcs in time, there wasn't much else going on in the fiction to create the excitement you seem to be looking for. Basically, the heroes were running after some enemies in an otherwise featureless hallway. Not much else going on there so I wouldn't exactly count this as a strong example of the adventure-story chase trope. In movies and literature that feature chases, there is almost always a lot more going on then a hallway and the tension of who is the faster sprinter. If that's all there is, then it's not really an exciting chase scene.
So, at the risk of sounding critical, it seems to me like you may have been looking for the rules to help create tension that wasn't actually there. Like you said, the chase was the only challenge; there was only one thing creating a need for dice rolling.
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Wanting something a bit more specialized than Defy Danger, I came up with a Move some time ago for PCs running from danger - this might be of interest for chases:
Fly you fools! Characters attempt to run, climb, flee from creatures or other danger. Use roll+con or roll+dex; -1 for clumsy armor, severe wounds or other impairment. Successfully escape to safe distance on 10+.
7-9 choose 1 in keeping with fiction:
- escape to safe distance but enemy inflicts an Average Wound (3 on d6, 4 on d8, etc) on your backside
- escape to safe distance but drop 1 item; GM decides
- escape to safe distance but damage armor while fleeing (-1 armor)
- escape but tire; suffer -1 forward
Note: enemy may choose to pursue from distance or not, possibly causing hero to “run again!”