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powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: dodonna on December 18, 2012, 01:07:17 PM

Title: Please critique my move
Post by: dodonna on December 18, 2012, 01:07:17 PM
I'm planning to run DW for the first time in the not-too-distant future, and was mulling over a possible dungeon-specific move. I want to run an adventure that's deliberately old-school, and came up with this, inspired by the classic text adventure Zork:

When you find yourself in total darkness, roll + WIS. On a 10+, choose 2. On a 7-9, choose 1.


Does that work? The penalty for a 6- is thematically appropriate, but it's also extreme...essentially a save vs. death. And, of course, if you roll a 7-9, you really don't have a choice unless you like being eaten by a grue. Would it be better to make it "choose 3" on a 10+ and "choose 2" on a 7-9; or to change the last option to "A grue does not attempt to eat you?"
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: mease19 on December 18, 2012, 01:25:45 PM
Given the results, I'd be tempted to douse the lights for the chance to get a free torch or discover some hidden item or 'feature.'    Eaten by a grue sort of steps on the GM's toes by saying what a monster/NPC does. 
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: dodonna on December 18, 2012, 03:05:25 PM
It was intended to come up when a character unintentionally found himself in darkness. (In Zork, you had to worry about maintaining a light source while underground, or you would--after a few turns--be eaten by a grue.) I didn't intend for it to be something that a character would deliberately trigger. Do Dungeon World players typically try to "game" the system in such a manner? If so, maybe being eaten by a grue isn't too harsh a penalty after all!
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: Lucacc on December 18, 2012, 05:49:02 PM
Mmmhhhh, my thoughts:

1) the "you are not eaten by a grue" does not lead to "what do you do?"  "I got digested is not a valid answer" :). It would be better "you feel the breath of a grue on your neck".
2) you will never be in total darkness till you have a charge of adventury gear.
3) I found the "6- as death penalty"...silly;
4) on 7-9 the "not get eaten" is obviously a must, so the move does not lead to anything interesting and i found it useless.
5) the move seems more linked to a Horror-game than an old-style-fantasy game.

All in all, imho, the move does not work...but i played less than 10 sessions, so do not trust my judgment. ;)
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: dodonna on December 18, 2012, 06:09:08 PM
FWIW, Zork is about as old-school fantasy as you get; it was one of the original text adventure RPGs. There were lots of things that could kill you outright. (Context for the "eaten by a grue" thing here: knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-are-likely-to-be-eaten-by-a-grue)

But, of course, the point is whether the move works for DW, and I agree with your other criticisms.

If it was reworded as "you feel the breath of a grue" (and assuming for the sake of the discussion that there WOULD be a situation in which a character was lacking adventure gear), would it work then?
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: HyveMynd on December 18, 2012, 08:09:05 PM
Quote
When you find yourself in total darkness, roll + WIS. On a 10+, choose 2. On a 7-9, choose 1.
  • You recall, to your delight, that you stuffed a torch into a little-used pocket or pouch, and light it.
  • As you grope around in the dark, you discover a hidden feature or object.
  • You are not eaten by a grue.
As written it's hilarious, and captures the essence of Zork in a single Move. It's great. However I wouldn't use it for an actual Dungeon World game for the same reasons the posters above me have listed.

If you really want to make a custom Move for the dungeon that evokes a Zork game, I would change the last option to something like this:
Quote
When you find yourself in total darkness, roll + WIS. On a 10+, choose 2. On a 7-9, choose 1.
  • You recall, to your delight, that you stuffed a torch into a little-used pocket or pouch.
  • As you grope around in the dark, you discover a hidden feature or object.
  • You are not spotted by a grue.
This way, not choosing "You are not spotted by a grue." doesn't mean instant death for the character. I mean yes, that's what would happen in a Zork game, but it goes against the "Always ask 'What do you do?'" principle of Dungeon World. Getting eaten by a grue is a fine (if exceedingly harsh) hard move, but 7-9 should fundamentally be a success.
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: dodonna on December 18, 2012, 09:11:32 PM
Thanks all for the comments. I've played DW once at Gen Con Indy, but am otherwise new to storytelling-style RPGs. I'm still trying to wrap my head around moves, fronts and so on. I've thoroughly read the core book and the beginner's guide, but I figured that creating some moves would be a good way of getting into the right mindset.

FWIW, I did think the instant death option was wrong, but wanted to run it by the hive mind (and the HyveMynd). Really appreciate the advice!
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: Valtiel on December 19, 2012, 06:25:24 AM
Grue
Solitary, Large, Stealthy
16 HP
Horrific Rending Mandibles (d10+1 damage)
Close, Reach, Messy
You may be eaten by one. Instinct: To devour the helpless and unaware.
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: Scrape on December 19, 2012, 04:12:51 PM
Yeah, my rule #1 for any custom move is "do not present false choices." This includes any option that kills you outright: "you do not get crushed by a boulder," "you do not splatter on the canyon floor," etc. If you want to continue playing, you must choose to not die. Therefore it's not really a choice at all.

The same concept applies to every dead-end option. If you make a disguise move and one of the 7-9 choices is "your disguise does not fail," you're basically forcing them to take it. Instead, think of what can go wrong and make the player choose exactly which thing goes wrong. You want an array; if one option is clearly the best then it's not an "option," it should just be written into the move: "your disguise doesn't fail, but..."
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: dodonna on December 20, 2012, 11:05:21 PM
Based on the feedback I received, here's a rewritten move:

When you unexpectedly find yourself in pitch blackness, roll+WIS. On a 10+, choose 2. On a 7-9, choose 1.
•   You discover an unlit torch in a little-used pocket or pouch.
•   While groping in the dark, you discover something interesting.
•   A gurgling grue does not approach you.
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: Scrape on December 22, 2012, 10:42:39 AM
So if I roll a 10+ and choose the first two options, I find a torch in my pocket while simultaneously stumbling in the dark and finding something interesting and then a grue approaches me at the same time? That's a lot going on right there, haha
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: dodonna on December 22, 2012, 11:21:06 AM
Fair point. I was trying to set it up as two positive outcomes and one negative outcome, presuming that the character rolling 10+ would at least include the not-being-attacked-by-a-monster option. But I guess I do need to account for someone choosing both positive outcomes and risking the negative consequence.

Stripped to the basics, the choices are:
1) an exit
2) a potential reward
3) combat

Should they be different? Should there be more? I was working under the assumption that 10+ was a total success and 7-9 was a partial success with a negative consequence.

How about this?

When you unexpectedly find yourself in pitch blackness, roll+WIS. On a 10+, choose 1. On a 7-9, choose 1, but a gurgling grue approaches you.
•   You discover an unlit torch in a little-used pocket or pouch.
•   While groping in the dark, you discover something interesting.
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: HyveMynd on December 24, 2012, 12:05:23 AM
I think both versions of the move work; the "choose two on a 7-9" and the "choose one, but a gurgling grue approaches you". It's just a matter of personal taste about the wording.

The options "You discover an unlit torch in a little-used pocket or pouch." and "While groping in the dark, you discover something interesting." do mesh a little unevenly. It's sort of assumed the character will light the torch as soon as they discover it, meaning there won't be any darkness to grope around in for the second option. But there's no reason the options have to happen in the order they're presented. The GM could narrate things so that the blundering happens before the torch is found. You could just change the wording to "After a few minutes, you discover an unlit torch in a little-used pocket or pouch." indicating that some time has passed.
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: Scrape on December 24, 2012, 05:40:49 PM
I kinda like idea removing the torch entirely, like "Choose one: You find something valuable lost in the dark, or You stumble across a secret tunnel, passage, or doorway." And that way you're not always discovering "just one more torch" in your saddlebag.
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: dodonna on December 24, 2012, 05:56:54 PM
Yeah, the other problem with discovering a torch is that (if you stick to the original source) grues cannot abide light at all. Choosing the torch automatically negates the threat.

This is tougher than I thought. Thanks, all!
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: Zartes on December 24, 2012, 07:21:21 PM
You could maybe replace "find a torch" with "discover a lightsource" - maybe the dungeon has that ubiquitous glowing lichen stuff. Or there's cave fairies. Or somesuch.

You could also say that grues can't abide light - so they seek to snuff it out, not flee from it.
Title: Re: Please critique my move
Post by: Undreren on December 26, 2012, 04:54:33 PM
Actually, I agree with Scrape; scrap the torch option. Having handy equipment is what Adventuring Gear is for :)