Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: Undreren on December 16, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
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How does a group roll a collective stealth roll?
I always hated the "everyone rolls" approach, it really irks me. Having everyone trigger an Avoid Danger is bad, since even if everyone had equally good stealth, it would all come down to the worst roll.
Or would it? In a lot of games it's like this. In D&D 4e they say that the person with the worst modifier makes the roll. I hated bith approaches. In DW it's different since 6- isn't necessarily a failure, but it's still a lot of rolls that could go tremendously bad.
Having everyone "aid" seems very weird too, since it implies that they help someone go undetected, but doesn't do so themselves.
How would you handle it?
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My gut reaction would be to say "I get how Terry the halfling thief is going sneak through here..." Then look pointedly at the dwarf fighter and start foretelling doom with the squeak of his chain mail.
But maybe that's just because I haven't had my coffee yet this morning.
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My gut reaction would be to say "I get how Terry the halfling thief is going sneak through here..." Then look pointedly at the dwarf fighter and start foretelling doom with the squeak of his chain mail.
But maybe that's just because I haven't had my coffee yet this morning.
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As always, it depends on what's happening. How are people sneaking, what are they sneaking past, what are the extenuating circumstances, what are the folk they're sneaking past doing, etc. "We're bundling Thorin up in heavy robes to eat the sound of his armour and then all tiptoeing on while the orcs are playing dice games" is a lot different than "I'll get the guards to chase me, the rest of you slip into the duke's room and take his chalice."
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First I would only roll if the situation really has a built-in conflict in it, second I am mostly taking the Burning Wheel approach for most games ever since I read it: decide a leader for the check to be made, that is the most skilled person, the one that shines on it, that person makes the roll.
If you want to make everyone roll, let everyone else roll to see if they aid the other or not. That is, considering you can actually take the group as a single entity for the roll, if everyone is doing a different stealth action, each one of them will have their own roll.
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Well, if you're glossing over things a bit - say, compacting down the entire party sneaking into the Duke's castle in one roll, then I would get the sneakiest party member (based on behaviour up to this point) Defy Danger with CHA, representing him guiding and leading the party through the various obstacles in their way.
Or they might come up with another plan.
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The way to deal with it depends obviously depends on what's actually happening in the fiction.
If the entire party tries to sneak into the wizards tower undetected however, everyone is essentially acting despite an eminent threat (Defy Danger trigger), which means that everyone must roll to Defy Danger. From the book:
[quote src="Dungeon World, page 18, in the middle"]A character can’t take the fictional action that triggers a move without that move occurring.
[/quote]
The thief example is therefore handled differently than the rules suggest. This doesn't mean it's a bad way to go, it just mean that it's not supported by the rules.
The way to go here is to make excellent use of "Show signs of an approaching threat" and maybe some location moves then (assuming someone rolls below 10)?
If it comes up a lot, the best way to deal with it is probably to make a custom move I guess?
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If the entire party tries to sneak into the wizards tower undetected however, everyone is essentially acting despite an eminent threat (Defy Danger trigger), which means that everyone must roll to Defy Danger. From the book:
I disagree that everyone is necessarily acting despite eminent threat. A combination of "what have a threatened them with" and "how do they intend to sneak in" may determine that it's otherwise.
That said, to more directly answer the question of "how would you handle it?" I wouldn't let it get there if at all possible, and if it actually ended up that the most appropriate thing was for everyone to individually roll DD, well, then they roll it and get individual results.
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This is an interesting problem. I thought it would have come up in my play but it hasn't yet. I think I tend to focus a lot on what the individuals are doing, which skirts the "group acting in concert" issue.
If the party spoke as one saying "we want to sneak around the burly guards together, as a team," then I would probably test the clumsiest character but let another help. Weakest link and all that. However:
A combination of "what have a threatened them with" and "how do they intend to sneak in" may determine that it's otherwise.
And since Nifelhein mentioned it, in Burning Wheel you would actually use the Slowest and Loudest rule for sneaking as a group. The person with the lowest Stealthy skill would roll. PM me if you want to discuss, so as not to derail.
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Yes, you definitely avoid a lot of this by turning to the thief and saying "what do you do?" Rather than leaving it an open question for the whole group.
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Unless they come up with something clever, I'd just get the person with the worst modifier to roll Defy Danger. The person with the best modifier might find a way to Aid, but not necessarily.
Sure, it might feel more realistic to have everyone roll and to have the person with the best stealth to Aid each of them in turn, but that's an awful lot of dice rolling for no extra fun.
Sure, you get odd edge cases, but those are mostly resolvable through narrative (no, you cannot sneak an entire platoon of chainmail-clad Deep Dwarves and their war moles past the elven sentries, even if the slowest, clumsiest dwarf rolls a natural 12), or not particularly problematic (two master thieves are better at sneaking around than one master thief, despite having twice as many opportunities to be spotted).
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I actually have a pretty good idea for a move that functions along the line of "Undertake a Perilous Journey" and "Recruit" for group stealth rolls.
I will post it later, when I'm done with it.
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Oooh! Can't wait to see it :-D
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There are a lot of options, depending on the circumstance. The posts here cover a lot of them, but I wanna add that sometimes it won't trigger a move at all. It's totally legit to be like "The duke's guards are really sharp and the Fighter is wearing plate mail and carrying three weapons. There's no way he'll make it past."
Remember that Tell the Consequences and Ask is in your arsenal, and so is Separate Them. Those moves work together here. I think it's cool to say "Thief, you know the Fighter doesn't stand a chance of being unheard. You could follow him a mile away. He'll get you caught in a heartbeat and you'll be right back in the duke's prison by nightfall. What are you gonna do about that?"
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There are a lot of options, depending on the circumstance. The posts here cover a lot of them, but I wanna add that sometimes it won't trigger a move at all. It's totally legit to be like "The duke's guards are really sharp and the Fighter is wearing plate mail and carrying three weapons. There's no way he'll make it past."
Remember that Tell the Consequences and Ask is in your arsenal, and so is Separate Them. Those moves work together here. I think it's cool to say "Thief, you know the Fighter doesn't stand a chance of being unheard. You could follow him a mile away. He'll get you caught in a heartbeat and you'll be right back in the duke's prison by nightfall. What are you gonna do about that?"
The Fighter can take off his plate mail and don some Leather Armor and a shield instead, in which case they could make an attempt. He might later knock a guard unconscious and "lend" his scale mail.
Players are pretty smart, they will react with plans like this when you tell them the requirements or consequences and ask. Which is great :)
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Don't you love that kind of thing? Armor is good, sure but nothing like knowing it will slow you down or outright give your location. :)
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That's awesome! Do you know how long it takes to get yourself out of plate mail? If I can't find something fun to do to them in all that time they deserve an automatic success on the stealth roll ;)
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AD&D 2nd edition had a table for that, but I believe it was a couple of minutes to put on and a few rounds to take it off without care for locks and things.
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Yeah, if the Fighter wants to face danger in less armor then I guess you're back to dealing with group stealth. The other posts have good advice for that. Myself, I was thinking more like "sneaking into the next room," when taking off your armor is louder than just walking in, but if it's a pre-planned assault or something they will come prepared.
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Don't you love that kind of thing? Armor is good, sure but nothing like knowing it will slow you down or outright give your location. :)
Armor is only good if you have to use it. You're better off not fighting at all, if it can be prevented. If you are especially brutal with the effects of damage, then the players will quickly realize this. Loosing an arm tends to complicate things.
The sheer amount of enemies can be frightening too. If you tell the players that there's 60+ goblins parading outside a fortress, they might decide not to risk fighting them. Being attacked by ten goblins with spears is d6+9 damage on anything but a 10+ result. That armor won't save you for long ;)
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I was going to say something about the accuracy of AD&D's armor changing speeds, but accuracy isn't really what DW is after as well.
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When you sneak through hostile territory, assign the following jobs:
- A lockpicker, rolling +DEX. On a 10+ the lockpicker gets the party there quicker than expected, or find an alternate route bypassing a known obstacle. On a 7-9 they find the least patrolled route and can lead everyone along it. (This job also includes leading the party along a precarious precipice, setting up a rope to climb a wall, and the like – all the acrobatics of breaking and entering.)
- A lookout, rolling +WIS. On a 10+ the scout will spot any trouble quick enough for you to get the drop on it. On a 7-9 neither party gets the drop on the other.
- A sweeper, rolling +WIS. On a 10+ the sweeper clears the tracks, making sure the simple passage of intruders goes unnoticed (if you start a fight or steal an object, that might be noticed, but not footprints, unlocked doors etc). On a 7-9 choose one: they notice something's amiss right now, but not what; after you're gone they can piece together exactly what you've done.
Notes:
- The lockpicker needs a new name: it's like a guide and stuff as well, the one knowing how to actually get to where they want to go. Failure on their part includes getting lost. If I called it just the Guide it wouldn't be clear it includes picking locks and stuff. I don't want to make that a fourth job either, or mash it into the sweeper's. Maybe some other division altogether could work better.
- The sweeper might roll+DEX instead depending on how you visualize their job. To me the important part is notice to the details, realising that the curtains used to hang just so. Someone with the wizard move Logical might even do it with INT. If you think the main skill involved would be the sleight of hand aspect, have them roll+DEX instead.
- Traps in the area, if there is no Thief there to roll for Trap Expert, are not really covered. The lockpicker's 10+ option might mean they notice a trap and bypass it. On a 7-9 though, it's legit to say the "immediate path" runs through a room you know contains a trap, and play out passing that room as usual. What the lockpicker's roll gave them is that this path will definitely lead to the right place, and it's the least patrolled.
- This move doesn't say what happens if you have less than three people in the party. You could treat the missing rolls as being 6-, meaning you'll either take your pretty time getting there, risk running into guards unprepared, or leaving glaring tracks for anyone to follow. Or you could say that with fewer people it's easier to stay alert and get everyone to move along, meaning you treat a missing roll like a 7-9.
- A Thief move corresponding to the Ranger's Follow Me and Strider would probably make sense. Especially if you do the "missing rolls treated as 6-" – then the Thief is the only one who can do even a half-decent job on her own.
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That move is great. Call the Guide the Burglar. Also, if there's less than 3 people, maybe one person can take two roles? It means they won't have optimal stats for both.
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"So, the thief is gonna lead the rest of you stealthily past the guards. That's defying danger, yep!"
One roll, for the group. The thief defies danger by leading everyone in. No big deal.
Maybe some other party members roll to Aid (thus possibly exposing themselves to danger).
And, like others said, you tell possible consequences and ask first (taking off noisy armor, etc.).
(P.S. I like the custom move too)
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I would avoid making this kind of group roll into single rolls, but would enforce the idea that the thief can only lead if the rest make sense on what they are doing.
I would rather have the stealthy character shine because he told the dwarf to take his armor off if he wanted to have a chance of moving past the guards, and then have him roll in what he should be *da guy*, in place of making nearly assured to fail sicne everyone will be rolling.
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Yeah, and of course you lead with the fiction. The thief can sneak in places alone that the group couldn't manage. You don't get to sidestep those concerns by making a roll -- it's the opposite. When the thief can lead the group, you do it that way. When she can't, everyone has to deal with the situation on their own.
There's no "group stealth" mechanic. Just situations, actions and move triggers.
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The greatest problem I see is that we often apply the logic to these cases: The weakest link is the one who will define the action, but that just makes it a bad roll.
Instead, on games try to focus on the idea that the most interesting outcome is based on the character's strengths, the leader has to be whoever is good at it, as long as the players make effort to minimize their weaknesses. Otherwise, the good character will not even bother, heknows they will fail, he is that good.
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Jonatan's move very much follows the same idea as mine, but he just had a much better execution. Nice one :)
I agree with Nifelhein; the GM should not emphasize how bad the worst is at specific things, but rather how good te best is.