Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: higgins on November 28, 2012, 04:48:09 AM
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Hi all!
I'm completely new to DW and I'm pretty intrigued by some of the mechanics... yet pretty confused as well.
How would the disarms work, for example? Either opponent getting disarmed or the PC. First off they'd have to be fundamentally differently handled, as opponents don't get rolls, but I still have no inkling on how to do this.
One option would be to... declare disarm instead of Hack & Slash 7-9 damage on either party, but that sounds too easy... like... if a player or MC would abuse this option even a bit, everyone in combat would be like major klutzes, always dropping their stuff.
Second option that I prefer, would be to make a separate move a'la Create Combat Advantage, in which you can disarm, trip, push back or do whatever to your opponent. The problem is.. that.. 10+ is you get the advantage, 6- is you get a disadvantage instead (disarmed, tripped, pushed back yourself) ... but I can't seem to come up with any good 7-9 results, as most of the advantages seem pretty binary.
Secondly, let's say the CCA "trip" move works and the opponent is on the ground now. What's the mechanical impact of that? Is it like FATE where you'll get a "prone" condition, which then can be tagged for free ... for +2 bonus or something? Or what does getting back up even entail? I didn't see how to handle this.
Same thing with grapple. What does that condition really change?
Volley move. Shouldn't taking shots from a further distance be harder? Right now it seems it's always the same difficulty. Same thing when meeting a higher skilled opponent. And I do means skill, not just toughness HP wise. If the PC keeps rolling 10+ then it doesn't really matter whether he's fighting Tyrion Lannister or Jamie Lannister.
Sorry for rambling =)
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Most of this is handled narratively. Disarming someone is probably Defy Danger, the player describes their actionand the GM tells them what the danger is. When it comes to volley, there are no range penalties because the players are presumed to be competent, and one of the 7-9 options is placing the character in danger. If an opponent is particularly skilled, the GM sets that up by making them more capable and dangerous with their ability to threaten the characters. Have you read the Beginner's Guide, yet? I delve into this stuff there quite a bit and do my best to explain how you can do it naturally.
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Have you read the Beginner's Guide, yet?
Oh, absolutely! That was essential reading. It even mentions losing footing as a worse outcome, but I haven't found a hint what the intended drawback would be? Defying Danger to get up?
Disarming someone is probably Defy Danger, the player describes their actionand the GM tells them what the danger is.
Can you bring me an example "danger" that makes sense to you for a disarming situation, but still warrants a basic success, as 7-9 is supposed to?
If an opponent is particularly skilled, the GM sets that up by making them more capable and dangerous with their ability to threaten the characters.
By that, you mean special moves? Or what?
Also, how do you handle PC vs PC combat? Let's say there's a huge tournament for money and two of the PC fighters end up in the finale.
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Can you bring me an example "danger" that makes sense to you for a disarming situation, but still warrants a basic success, as 7-9 is supposed to?
"As you strike the Captain's sword from his hands with a flourish all eyes are on you... they've just realized you're the most dangerous woman in the room... what do you do?"
"You'll be able to knock the barbarian's axe from his grasp, but you'll be leaving yourself wide open to his wolf companion's bite... what do you do?"
"He's lost his weapon, but, unexpectedly, punches you with his gauntleted fist! What do you do?"
Do those work for you?
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First one works, yes.
Second... As DW doesn't have rules for being prone/defenseless/etc, what would leaving oneself open mean? Defy Danger check required? I guess that could work, but if Devy Danger is required, then there's no point asking what the character would do, is there?
Third... I wouldn't have expected a hard move as a 7-9 suggestion, but a punch is d4 damage? That wouldn't even be an issue for an armoured character, so, mixed feelings.
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Second... As DW doesn't have rules for being prone/defenseless/etc, what would leaving oneself open mean? Defy Danger check required? I guess that could work, but if Devy Danger is required, then there's no point asking what the character would do, is there?
You always ask what a character is going to do! If you don't know what they're doing, then you don't know what, if any, moves are being invoked.
If the player says, "I keep attacking the barbarian", it might make the move a Hack and Slash with the wolf doing the damage, if they say "I guard myself from the wolf", they may be Defending, if they say, "I tumble past the wolf to strike the barbarian in the back!", that might be a Defy Danger.
As to the punch, it may not even do any damage at all, it's just "showing signs of an approaching threat", i.e., even without a weapon, this guy still has some fight in him.
Heck, I'd consider all of my examples to be "showing signs of an approaching threat" that, if the player ignores, can provide some hard follow-ups.
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You always ask what a character is going to do!
That was kind of my point. If the Defy Danger would have been required, then there would be no point to ask it, and that would contradict the core tenets of the game.
But okay, let's say the... character is "wide open to the wolf" and tumbles past both of them... then how would you handle this? Wolf dealing harm on 7-9 as the PC was wide open? And dealing +1d6 harm on a 6-? I mean, what I'm asking is... Does this defenslessness situation justify hard move on a 7-9 result? Or no? Or is it just up to the individual GM? What would most of you do?
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Begin and end in the fiction. Moves are allowed and created by the fiction, not the other way round. That is perhaps the single most confusing thing about AW and DW.
If the player goes for the disarm when you say they are "wide open to the wolf" they are ignoring a threat and you get to make a hard move, "the wolf sinks its teeth into your outstretched arm, dragging down your guard, 6HP damage and the orc is sweeping his fist towards your unprotected gut. What do you do?"
If the response was "Forget the disarm, I instead tumble nimbly past them both and backstab the orc" you would be saying "you can probably roll under the orc's swing <defy danger -agility> but chances are wolf will be on you before you get to your feet again, do you want to try that?".
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Ah, okay. I guess that would work, but... Let's go back to the big question:
How do you handle PC vs PC combat? Let's say there's a huge royal tournament for heaps of gold and two of the PC fighters end up in the finale.
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Was gonna give some examples for disarming with Defy Danger, but you've got some great ones already. Probably the easiest 7-9 result is something like "so you grabbed the sword from his hand, but you grabbed it by the blade..." Think dangerous, yeah?
As for pvp, I'm out of my element there. My players never fought each other. I've always kinda thought pvp was weird with the apocalypse engine, but other people have had great experiences so I'll let them handle it.
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How do you handle PC vs PC combat? Let's say there's a huge royal tournament for heaps of gold and two of the PC fighters end up in the finale.
I'd say that warrants a whole new thread as it's a topic not really reflected in the subject of this one!
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Second... As DW doesn't have rules for being prone/defenseless/etc, what would leaving oneself open mean? Defy Danger check required? I guess that could work, but if Devy Danger is required, then there's no point asking what the character would do, is there?
You've told them the consequences and asked. Deal damage as established. No need for a defy danger there. They've left themselves open.
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When doing PvP in *World games, in my experience you need both GM and players who go with fiction first, as in, fiction before everything else. No-one involved can, like, push their right to a move in any given moment. And everyone needs to accept that sometimes there's a GM judgement thing going on and they need to respect the GM's judgement.
Essentially, all players should have experience with successfully MCing a *World game. I might be exaggerating, but not much.
If one doesn't have this, I don't think PvP will work out very well. My experience is limited, though.
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"You'll be able to knock the barbarian's axe from his grasp, but you'll be leaving yourself wide open to his wolf companion's bite... what do you do?"
As DW doesn't have rules for being prone/defenseless/etc, what would leaving oneself open mean? Defy Danger check required? I guess that could work, but if Devy Danger is required, then there's no point asking what the character would do, is there?
You've told them the consequences and asked. Deal damage as established. No need for a defy danger there. They've left themselves open.
Ah, okay. That's an interesting take, too. However, when do you see the dealing damage taking place? If the player won't pay heed to the wolf? Or even if he turns to fight the wolf? Would you allow him an action or would you deal damage immediately as the 7-9 disarm drawback?
P.S.
Okay, I made the PvP into a new thread: http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=5847.0
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Ah, okay. That's an interesting take, too. However, when do you see the dealing damage taking place? If the player won't pay heed to the wolf? Or even if he turns to fight the wolf? Would you allow him an action or would you deal damage immediately as the 7-9 disarm drawback?
If you tell the player they'll get bit if they do something and they do it anyway, they get bit.
Bob the Fighter - "I roll 7 on that roll to disarm"
Your Loving MC - "Cool, you can knock the weapon out of the guy's hand easy, but that wolf is going to have a clean shot at your ankle if you do. How much do you like your ankle?"
Bob - "Screw it, I knock the jerk's sword away. I'll deal with the wolf late-OW!"
MC - "Yeah, d6 damage doesn't feel that comfortable, does it?"
Bob - "You could've rolled it instead of throwing it at me..."
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If you tell the player they'll get bit if they do something and they do it anyway, they get bit.
Or if that feels too hard, I think it would also be totally legit to say "Cool, you can knock the weapon out of the guy's hand easy, but you're going to leave yourself wide open to the wolf if you do. Your next move is going to have to be made in the presence of that danger." Then for their next move they can either Defy Danger or else Defend, but they can't Hack and Slash because they're wide open.
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Bob the Fighter - "I roll 7 on that roll to disarm"
Your Loving MC - "Cool, you can knock the weapon out of the guy's hand easy, but that wolf is going to have a clean shot at your ankle if you do. How much do you like your ankle?"
Bob - "Screw it, I knock the jerk's sword away. I'll deal with the wolf late-OW!"
MC - "Yeah, d6 damage doesn't feel that comfortable, does it?"
Bob - "You could've rolled it instead of throwing it at me..."
So, you're actually giving him a hard bargain with the success on what Bob aimed out for on one scale? And a hard move on the.. very same scale where the success is? IMO that's like saying "You rolled 7-9, now pick both 10+ and miss results or neither." And if the player chooses neither, he's really in stagnation, which is not how the rules are supposed to work. Right?
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So, you're actually giving him a hard bargain with the success on what Bob aimed out for on one scale? And a hard move on the.. very same scale where the success is? IMO that's like saying "You rolled 7-9, now pick both 10+ and miss results or neither." And if the player chooses neither, he's really in stagnation, which is not how the rules are supposed to work. Right?
I disagree that he's in stagnation. Something happens regardless, depending on what the player says next. Also, I don't feel it's a particularly hard move, so I don't feel its a miss result. Maybe your misses are nicer than mine, because for my games that's hardly even a consequence. Anyway, essentially it's me turning it into a 7-9 on H&S with alternate damage (the disarming) and a choice to pull back at the last second and do something else, which may or may not trigger a move depending. Anyway, maybe I'd more likely say "You can wrest the sword out of the opponent's hand, but you'll be leaving yourself wide open to the wolf. Otherwise, you can shove the dude away by the sword and leave him with it and focus on the wolf while he get's his bearings. The choice is yours." Maybe not, though, cause I know that my players will leave themselves pretty much every time.
Also what zmook says.
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There's no need for stagnation. "I'm not opening myself up to a wolf. There must be a better way. Can I put like a rock outcropping or something between me and that wolf?"
"Well, the wolf is slinking in pretty quick, but yeah. You can get something between you, sounds like a Defy Danger using DEX to me. It should give you a moment to act before it comes around."
Stagnation isnt such a big deal either. Stagnation is just another way to say "Everyone looks at the GM to say something." We know what the GM does then...