Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: Evenglare on November 24, 2012, 09:54:50 PM
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For example how would you deal with someone kicking down a door , or trying to steal something ? In a d20 game you would roll a skill check to see if something occurred but in this game there are no such things. I have read the beginners guide, and that actually provoked this line of thought. In that guide there is a part where the thief wants to get a jewel from a statue, the author says he can, but what if he can't? What do you do ? Just say no you can't or what?
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There has to be a good reason that the character can't, but remember that even in D20 if a player says "I turn myself inside out and hide inside of my own internal lining!" or some such thing, you should just tell them that they can't, so this isn't a unique thing to Dungeon World. What is unique to Dungeon World is that, when a player wants to do something that doesn't make sense or shouldn't be possible, you should usually use the "Tell them the requirements or consequences and then ask" move.
"You want to kick down that door? You probably could, but it would make a loud noise, and it will be too damaged to lock again . . ." The Fighter has a move that lets them control the circumstances of breaking down doors and such, so that they can avoid unfortunate outcomes like that.
For stealing something, if nobody is watching and the object is something the character can carry, of course they can steal it! If they need to take it without being noticed, they're actually triggering the Defy Danger move, where the danger is being noticed.
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If you can't do something, then the GM should tell you that.
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An important way to look at things: you're rolling if there's a consequence of failure, so if the character's attempting something with no consequence, just make a judgment call. Like the Fighter's Bend Bars/Lift Gates move, the consequence can be as little as destroying something or making some noise. No roll should end in a roadblock; failure means something bad happens. It's an important distinction.
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Sometimes it's just "No, but if you could change X, Y or Z then maybe?"
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My initial thought was why is the GM putting a door in front of the fighter that he can't kick down. Maybe there's a fantastic reason, but usually a door that he can kick down is much more interesting. I'm a fan of the fighter and his door-kicking self.
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What I'm really wondering is does the game cater to the little extra things. For instance the jewel in the eye socket example. In a normal d20 game the person would roll a str check , if they didnt meet the strength check then they didnt get the jewel, if they DID then they got a little extra treasure. How does Dungeon world handle these things ? These optional things that are there kind of as a bonus . Do you just always give them the jewel? I understand that a 6- is failure , a 7-9 is "yes, but..." , and a 10+ is success. But there seems to be no check for this. How do I know if they can take the jewel without consequences , take it but have to pay a price, or not be able to take it at all?
Should I just make up a move for it, assuming my party likes these kind of little extras?
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If there's a possibility of negative consequences when they decide to take the gem, they're defying danger. If there's no possibility of negative consequences, you should just let them have it. But why put a huge gem that might be a pain to steal in a room unless you want to lure your players into doing something dangerous?
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"Why put a gem in a room if it's not dangerous?"
I like to build my worlds with a lot of extra things, I dont thing -everything- needs to lead to danger. Somethings should just be there to make the world feel a bit more real. Sort of sandbox..y.
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"Why put a gem in a room if it's not dangerous?"
I like to build my worlds with a lot of extra things, I dont thing -everything- needs to lead to danger. Somethings should just be there to make the world feel a bit more real. Sort of sandbox..y.
Putting a big gem in a statue, with no risk, is like doing this to them. Which is awesome.
http://oglaf.com/trapmaster/ (http://oglaf.com/trapmaster/)
(Note: this particular page is SFW. Rest of that site: NSFW.)
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LMFAO. That's amazing!
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Look, they say "I'm going to get. That gem!" You, the GM, have decided there's no trap, there's no guard, there's no risk of falling, getting attacked, breaking something, angering the gods. So, no danger. No danger, no Defying Danger. No move.
There's no move there.
If they aren't triggering a move, then you just ask them to describe getting the gem out and you describe how the gem comes out. Or, if you've decided that they can't possibly get the gem out, you narrate them not getting it.
Moves aren't about "can you do it?" They're about what happens when you try.
(@Jeremy, that's hilarious!)
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Right, so basically it has nothing to do with how strong the character is numerically. If there's no trap the GM gets to decide, and the decision is irrelevant to the mechanics? Is this correct?
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Sure, but if he lacks strength, then it's a good opportunity for the GM to ask the obvious "how do you get it out, little man?" In fact it might be a good time to show them the downside of their class (like if its a wizard, how does he climb up to the eye socket? How does he pry out the gem without tools? Etc.)
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I think its simply a case of let them get the gem... Then ask questions, of the characters and your own prep (stakes).
So, [paladin] you saw the thief pry the gem from the socket of that idol, right? What do you think about that?
So you have the gem, what do you want to do with it?
So that gem the thief garnered, it feels magical... you know something about its history yeah [wizard]? Wanna Spout Lore about it?
So you missed your [roll sometime later in the dungeon]? That gem you recovered from the idol? It seems to have literally burned a hole in your pocket and disappeared... [Hmmmm, who else wants that gem and why?]
Its never just a little extra on the side. If it's narrated into the story, make it stick, re-incorporate, ask questions.
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In the example you're mentioning, the wizard wanted the gem and told me he was prying it out with a knife. I might have left that out for brevity. I thought about it for a minute and was like, "this isn't a move. This is just a dude pulling out a gem." My experience with DW is that it's not simulationist, so it doesn't concern itself with how difficult an action is. Just the consequences of that action.
If youwanted, you could ask for a Defy Danger and on a failure, the character hurts himself- like, cuts himself while prying the gem out. I don't think I would do that, but it's valid. The trick is, always look for the consequence, it should never be a dead end. Because when the player rolls a failure, you make a move. The move is entirely up to you, but it's a move.
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Like, think of it this way: what's more interesting? Being told you can't open a door? Or being told something happens when you try?
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Roll +Str or + Dex)
0n a 10+, you prize the gem out
On a 7-9, choose one:
- You prize the gem out
- You don't alert nearby guards with your swearing as you try to get the damn thing out
On a 6-, you can't get it out.
In other words, use custom moves for anything not in the rules.
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What I'm really wondering is does the game cater to the little extra things. For instance the jewel in the eye socket example. In a normal d20 game the person would roll a str check , if they didnt meet the strength check then they didnt get the jewel, if they DID then they got a little extra treasure.
This is not the kind of question Dungeon World cares very much about, most of the time. Is the thief strong enough to lift this particular idol? Can the wizard jump 10 feet horizontally, or only 9? Can the bard remember the words to the national anthem? In the DW philosophy, these questions are not so much interesting *in themselves*, but only insofar as they have fictional consequences. Is the Queen waiting to strike off his head if he misses a verse? Well, okay, now we're talking! Defy Danger, bard.
So basically, if the gem is just there, and there's no trap, or need for stealth, or race against time or anything, you can just pry it out. Is it going to make anyone's game better if you say "there's a gem, but you're too weak to grab it", and then everyone wastes time while the thief looks for a crowbar? Probably not. Still, if it scratches some kind of "realism" itch for you, go ahead and create a move. The Fighter's Bend Bars, Lift Gates move would be a place to start.
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Thanks for the replys. I do play with a very simulationist group. It's simply what my characters like. I'm sure we are far from the normal group. And as a DM I enjoy creating worlds generating towns and npc's right down to the last detail. It's boring to most, but it's just something I enjoy. I'm an astrophysicist so I guess that's the reason i'm drawn to the mathematical mechanical side of RPGs. I love seeing how things interact. I figure if I ever run dungeon world it'll be online in a play by post game which it seems very much suited for compared to tactical combat.
I'm sure I will make some sort of strength check move , and failure would result in sound or something to alert the nearby guards. This would take care of getting gems to smashing doors. Again, thanks for all the help in this.
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Regarding the concept of not having consequences and having consequences and how it affects an action is interesting. It sounds like if a character is in a padded room with no one watching, he is a god and can technically succeed at everything. He can run and jump over that imaginary pit. He technically "succeeds" because there's no consequences. Everyone wants to be a god. But being a god is only fun if you can impress those who worship you. :) It's not much of a story in a padded cell.
Depending on how I was feeling at the time, getting the gem out of the statue, I would probably do a Defy Danger (STR) and then do a move to further the story on a failure or partial success. Maybe on a failure they don't get it and the jem glows a bit when scratched with the knife. Why did it do that? Or maybe when trying to pry it out with their knife, they broke their dagger (separate them from resources) or they made a loud noise or the statue got knocked over and fell down on their buddy. Even though there's no planned danger, bad or interesting things can still happen.
Or I could they could succeed but at what price? The wizard can't climb up that high and certainly isn't strong enough to get it out, but given the time and the resources, he can eventually get it. Ask him how he plans to do that. He might have to go back to town and recruit help to build scaffolding or bring a ladder or learn that levitate ritual. That will take time and money. Do they have that time? What else is going on tin the world? Plus while the wizard is back at town what/who else may have moved into the dungeon while he was gone?
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Thanks for the replys. I do play with a very simulationist group.
That's cool, and it seems like for pbem it would be a good thing to play a system with streamlined combat. That said, I think you'll find that DW doesn't give much support for simulationist play. The rules never really say "how much" you can do something, like "are you strong enough", or fast enough, or smart enough. What a roll decides, basically, is just who gets to describe what happened -- does the player get to say "Bran totally leaps that chasm like he was walking on air", or does the DM get to say "well, not quite"? It works for cinematic drama, but if you want something to determine objectively "this is how wide a chasm you can jump, and these are the modifiers for loose footing", you're going to be house-ruling all day long.
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I don't mean to imply that consequence is the only metric of success, it's just the main metric of rolling for success. Most "can I do this" questions are answered by common sense and fiction as established. Does it make sense that the character can do this thing, if it doesn't trigger a move?
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Consequences are not how you tell if you roll the dice. You roll the dice if a move triggers, plain and simple. The presence of consequences is baked into the moves.
In general, if someone does something that's not a move you just portray the fictional outcome honestly. Sometimes that means making a soft move, like telling them the requirements and asking.
So, prying out a gem from the eye of an idol, 7 ways:
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The characters, through a series of clever plans, has essentially secured the area—no traps, no time pressure, no lack of resources. The character prying it out is using some leverage, like a knife. As the GM I look at all those factors, look at the moves, and see no move has triggered. So I say "after some wiggling the gem pops out. What do you do?" I'm playing by the first point of my agenda: portray a fictional world.
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There's no immediate threats, but the characters are deep in a dungeon and monsters are everywhere. I know the stone is well set (dwarven statue and all) so it'll be tough to get out, but not impossible. The player says they pry it out with a knife. I see some potential danger here: the danger of spending too long here and being discovered. I tell the player they've triggered defy danger, and it sounds like str to me, since they're trying to pry it out with brute strength. They agree, roll, and…
3
In the heat of battle the thief has slipped away, scaled the statue, and is trying to pry out the eye. There's definitely danger being defied, as any second a lizardman might look up and see an easy pot shot. The thief says they're balancing behind the statue as much as possible, so that all the lizardmen can see is an arm reaching around—not very likely to be noticed. Sounds like defy danger with dex to me, and if they fail it may be about their precarious balance instead of being spotted.
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Having come across the statue the fighter decides to just bash it and take the gems. That triggers her bend bars, lift gates move. Depending on the roll, he might break it in such a way as to be relatively quiet, non obvious, or whatever.
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Having come across the statue the paladin decides to just bash it and take the gems. The statue's not too strong, and he's pretty strong, so that sounds reasonable. I describe the crash as the statue shatters and make a note that the lizardmen heard, since they're nearby, and they'r eon the way. (That's a soft show signs of doom.)
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Having come across the statue the wizard decides to just bash it and take the gems. First I ask what he'll use to do it, and he points out that he still has the cult leader's mace. That sounds good enough, but looking at his strength he's not all that strong. I tell him that it looks like it'll take several minutes of concentrated hammering. If he wants to risk the time and sound, he can do it. (Tell them the requirements and ask.)
7
Having come across the statue the thief says he just grabs the gem and walks out. I tell him that when he grabs the gem it doesn't come loose. He needs some leverage or something, there's just no way for a human hand to get enough purchase to grab it out.
Note that all of these are different situations. In some of them the statue is strong, in some it's weak. In some the characters take different approaches to getting the eye out. All of those are important factors in what moves, if any, trigger.
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Those are great example situations there. When I mentioned consequences, that's kinda what I meant, I'm just not saying it right I guess. Like, if there are no immediate dangers involved with the action and nothing can really go wrong, you probably don't need dice. You want to look at what the likely outcome would be and just let it happen, just do whatever makes sense. The "consequence" thing is me trying to say "are they defying a danger or just doing something here? Does it make sense that they can just do it, because there's no pressure?