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powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: Sarim Rune on August 21, 2012, 06:20:46 PM

Title: Confused and need help
Post by: Sarim Rune on August 21, 2012, 06:20:46 PM
I am desperately trying to wrap my brain around some of the cool concepts in DW.

I'm struggling at when the GM 'acts'.  There is no traditional initiative that I've come to rely upon so I'm not really sure when the GM makes moves. 

In the intro of the pre-release, the GM inflicts some damage on one of the characters and I'm not really sure why that happened.  Because the focus is never to declare the move itself, it wasn't clear, from my point of view, why the GM was using a move and against that character. 

Does anybody have any insight here? 
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: leathermartini on August 21, 2012, 06:38:48 PM
The GM makes moves mainly in three circumstances:

1) the player(s) are not making a move. The orc charges. None of the players react.. The orc stabs the wizard.
2) the players roll a failure (6 and down). The fighter tries to Hack and Slash but misses, and leaving her side open the the ogre's club.
3) the players roll a 7-9, however the moves here may more limited and may occur only at player choice.

It doesn't sound like a lot, but it certainly gave me more than enough chances to shape the games at GenCon.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: noofy on August 21, 2012, 07:59:27 PM
Its not as formal as you might expect Sarim. LM has the right of it. Think of your GM moves as just a handy list of options or coda for what you would do in a 'normal' initiative / turn based system. The When is determined by the unfolding story. If it makes sense in the fiction then that should be your guide. Think of your favourite movies or books: sometimes the fiction focuses on the antagonists, but generally its as a result of the moves the heroes make. Make sure everyone has therir time in the spotlight, allow moves to snowball into one another, and make your GM / monster / dungeon moves as appropriate.

Try not to think of your moves as acting 'against' any particular character. You are siimply describing a situation in the unfolding drama, with impending (soft) or consequential (hard) effects and giving the players (addressing the characters) a choice: "what do you do?"
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Scrape on August 21, 2012, 10:36:21 PM
Think of it this way: you narrate the beginning of the NPC's action, but stop before the outcome is decided: "The ogre is swinging his club down at you." That's your threatening move. Then the player reacts: they can jump out of the way and Defy Danger, they can parry and attack with Hack & Slash. The player's roll decides the outcome of your NPC's action.

Sometimes the player has ignored a threat, or been forced to choose between two threats, like an archer is shooting at them simultaneously but they choose to Hack & Slash the ogre anyway. In that case, their roll determines the ogre's outcome but you might say that they take an arrow because they didn't try to hide or dodge.

Does that help? It helped me to think of it that way. Playing the game is very natural in practice, it's not as awkward as it might sound.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: noofy on August 22, 2012, 12:37:58 AM
Great advice, but I think its limiting to think in terms of player moves as actions, Scrape. Its far more beneficial to narrate what you (as the character) are doing and if it engages a trigger then roll a move.

When the ogre's club comes spinning down at the character's head they may try and avoid the blow by rolling away, or parry, or leap under the orgre's guard and attack, or any number of other cool player decided actions. It may trigger a move, it may not. Its just important to lead with the fiction first, rather than the mechanics of the move.

This recent article by Chris highlights the differences between say D&D and AW (DW). It may help: http://bankuei.wordpress.com/ (http://bankuei.wordpress.com/)

Quote
MethodsAW is all about methods. Played to the book, the players actually should only be describing methods at all times, and it’s the GM’s job to really look at the Moves.

Events
AW is also about events. Because any given Move can be deeper zoomed in to a single moment, the results of Moves becomes Events, as well. It does a slick thing where Moves often provide lists of possible results, which produces Events and Outcomes in one go.

Outcomes
AW takes a relatively traditional view of Outcomes – effectively everything is an iterative action, and the Outcomes are when the fiction changes enough out of the Moves.

This is actually why a lot of folks read and play AW then walk away saying, “Wow, I can use this GMing advice for other games!” – the Principles and Hard Moves fill in a structural support for what has been left GM Fiat for most games.

Waste
The cost of conflicts comes out of either Moves directly (often with the player having to make hard choices out of a list) or failing a Move and taking a Hard Move. Funny enough, AW’s view of cost is less about making it an outcome of conflicts as much as a springboard to CREATE conflicts. Being successful in AW often means pissing someone off…
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Sarim Rune on August 22, 2012, 06:05:10 PM
Think of it this way: you narrate the beginning of the NPC's action, but stop before the outcome is decided: "The ogre is swinging his club down at you." That's your threatening move. Then the player reacts: they can jump out of the way and Defy Danger, they can parry and attack with Hack & Slash. The player's roll decides the outcome of your NPC's action.

Sometimes the player has ignored a threat, or been forced to choose between two threats, like an archer is shooting at them simultaneously but they choose to Hack & Slash the ogre anyway. In that case, their roll determines the ogre's outcome but you might say that they take an arrow because they didn't try to hide or dodge.

Does that help? It helped me to think of it that way. Playing the game is very natural in practice, it's not as awkward as it might sound.

Actually this description is what worked for me.  Thanks!  It actually makes sense now.  =)

Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Sarim Rune on August 22, 2012, 06:14:08 PM
Re: Events, Outcomes, Waste, etc.

See, this is actually where my confusion stems from.  The book and these articles are trying to rewrite and add new terms for old things.  This is not meant as an attack against DW or other indy games.  But I don't see the need for it.

Where I started getting confused at was the term golden opportunity (referring to when a player fails a roll).  In the context, it is used as if it was something unique, when really it means "GM do something cool now."  Or in any other game, "The GM takes an action with a monster". 

Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Dracones on August 22, 2012, 06:50:06 PM
Yeah, the events, outcome, method, etc totally lost me too.

I pretty much grok the idea of soft moves and hard moves, along with foreshadowing impending dangers.

This game will really benefit from some solid play session recordings.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: mease19 on August 22, 2012, 07:24:36 PM
See, I always read 'golden opportunity' as being when players persist when they should really know better.  You know, making that one snide remark when leaving the throne room or sticking their arm into the lion statue's mouth.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Jingo on August 22, 2012, 09:47:23 PM
....
I pretty much grok the idea of soft moves and hard moves, along with foreshadowing impending dangers.

This game will really benefit from some solid play session recordings.

Agreed. Has anyone done a pod cast of a DW game? That'd be useful.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: noofy on August 22, 2012, 10:17:37 PM
Hey Jingo, the Walking Eye did an excellent job of podcasting the 'Red Book' rules :)
http://www.dungeon-world.com/index.php/blog/dungeon-world-actual-play-on-the-walking-eye/ (http://www.dungeon-world.com/index.php/blog/dungeon-world-actual-play-on-the-walking-eye/)

I agree Marshall. There is some tenuous connection between the concept of a golden opportunity and the various means to facilitate the diminishment of the players resource of 'mistake potential' (in my mind that's what HP are really). Its on the tip of my mind, like a gestalt concept from the DW paradigm of play, something that encodes the wonderful relationship between the players and the story and the mechanics.

Their moves (and the stats that influence them) challenge that golden opportunity, and on a 10+ usually delay it for a little longer. This 'persistence despite knowing better' is almost like the epitome of filling their lives with adventure and being a fan of the players all in one crazy meta-concept.

Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Scrape on August 22, 2012, 11:42:56 PM
I agree that all these new terms for regular rpg things can be confusing for new players to parse. Especially if we confuse things by complicating words like "action" to mean something esoteric instead of just "doing something."

Like, I'm not sure what Noofy's trying to say in this post:

Great advice, but I think its limiting to think in terms of player moves as actions, Scrape. Its far more beneficial to narrate what you (as the character) are doing and if it engages a trigger then roll a move.

When the ogre's club comes spinning down at the character's head they may try and avoid the blow by rolling away, or parry, or leap under the orgre's guard and attack, or any number of other cool player decided actions.

...because I never referred to anything the players did as an "action," but even if I had I'm not sure what's "limiting" about the word that means "to do something." And I even listed multiple reactions that a player might have and what moves those might trigger, so I don't know what the issue was exactly.

I guess I did refer to the NPC's "action" but I meant it in the non-game-theory way, like literally "you start to describe what your NPC does, but the player's move finishes the narration."

I'm glad if my simple explanation helped someone! Thanks!
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: noofy on August 23, 2012, 01:08:59 AM
Thanks for the discussion Scrape :)
I wasn't trying to knock your advice, simply expand it a little. What I mean is that in DW (or any AW game), that it can be limiting to refer to what the characters do (not players) by only using move methodology. Your mulltiple reactions and move possibilities were awesome examples!

I just thought that it might help Sarim's 'initiative order focused' group to just have a conversation, focus on the fiction for a while. That way folks have a turn talking, instead of 'taking their turn'; the story rolls naturally around the group.

If it feels like they need to roll, then check for a move trigger; if its applicable, say how you make the move and do it! This in turn feeds the snowball, but its important to keep leading with the fiction instead of just exchanging 'moves'. More often than not the situation you present as a question in reply you'll say as a DM move, but you never speak its name, yeah?  Then on with the story :)
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Scrape on August 23, 2012, 09:11:01 AM
Okay, gotcha, I thought you were criticising the use of the word "action" and I was confused.

Anyway, it was clear to me that Sarim's group was having trouble understanding the rules. If that's the case, that means they need to hear a rephrased version of the author's intent.

I remember when AW first blew my mind, I had to read the book three times to fully understand how it worked. Not everyone is steeped in the Forge and not everyone immediately grasps what is meant by the "conversation" or "leading with the fiction." They're all, "I thought this was a game?"

Sometimes I think these games need to handhold new players a little more. After a while the group will realize that unlike most RPGs, in DW there is no separation of combat and exploration and the narrative conversation remains intact between the two. But for now, he needs help getting that conversation started.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Dracones on August 23, 2012, 10:39:38 AM
I know when I first read DW I was like "how is there no initiative for combat??". But then what rpg has initiative for social interactions?

Combat in DW seems to flow in the same way other rpgs assume you handle the PCs sitting at feast chatting with the king. It's a conversation and rolls only happen if what the players are saying triggers a mechanic(bluff, intimidation, diplomacy, etc).

It's rather interesting when you think about it the other way around. Many rpgs have a very natural flow for finding things in the world, using skills, acting socially and then they turn into a tactical tabletop miniatures game the moment you draw a sword.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Scrape on August 23, 2012, 11:35:47 AM
Yeah, it's weird that it always seemed natural until an alternative is pu out there. It's good to rethink things, that's my favorite part of the *World games!
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: stras on August 23, 2012, 12:26:59 PM
Re: Events, Outcomes, Waste, etc.

See, this is actually where my confusion stems from.  The book and these articles are trying to rewrite and add new terms for old things.  This is not meant as an attack against DW or other indy games.  But I don't see the need for it.

Where I started getting confused at was the term golden opportunity (referring to when a player fails a roll).  In the context, it is used as if it was something unique, when really it means "GM do something cool now."  Or in any other game, "The GM takes an action with a monster".  

Sarim, there's a bit here that I'm not sure if the guys drove home (it might be in the linked article).

The difference between a GM move and a golden opportunity is that you can make a move as hard as you like.

This is the difference between a hard and soft move.  In say 'D&D' or another trad game, taking an action with a monster is a soft move followed by a hard move post dice adjudication.  Let me demonstrate.

The traditional monster turn is "X attacks Y, roll to hit, roll for damage, Y roll to escape grapple/being-sucked-Elsewhere/save-vs".

In DW on a 7-9 you may hit the critter, and it 'launches at your throat' or 'throws a fireball at you' and you can defy danger to get out of the way, get an assist from someone tackling you down etc.  This is a soft move.

A hard move means you're hit. Period.  Instead of 'the monster swings' it's 'your collarbone shatters under the mace, roll for damage'.  It can of course be things that affect everyone "the avalanche buries the area, what do you do!?" or a move of any Hardness (including softs) and not just damage  "the earth elemental's hand fuses to solid rock around you! What do you do?".

In general that golden opportunity is a great time to change up the battlefield, flip tables around and so on.  Remember that moves snowball.  So a soft move will prompt a player move, which usually prompts another action.

A hard move may take a number of rolls to resolve (be it via healing, or struggling with fixing the problem).

And finally when everyone pauses and looks at you like 'what next' start with a soft move "the goblin leader steps forward, glares, and throws his spear over your whole squad in a challenge!  What do you do?"

Hope that helps! :)
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Dracones on August 23, 2012, 01:13:11 PM
The traditional monster turn is "X attacks Y, roll to hit, roll for damage, Y roll to escape grapple/being-sucked-Elsewhere/save-vs".

In DW on a 7-9 you may hit the critter, and it 'launches at your throat' or 'throws a fireball at you' and you can defy danger to get out of the way, get an assist from someone tackling you down etc.  This is a soft move.

This is an interesting example, because I thought that with Hack and Slash a 7-9 response was "you were hit".

I suppose one way to look at it is that in a Hack and Slash situation where you're faced off against a foe, circling around and trading blows, the soft move is already assumed. So the 7-9 is a hard response "his jab back gets under your guard, take 1d6 damage".

But there could be situations where a new person moving into a hack and slash it wouldn't make sense to respond with a hard move. Say the foe is busily engaged with the fighter and the bard is at the foe's back and makes a slash at the guy's legs. 7-9 the guy goes down but the bard now has threat. The bard can continue hacking(7-9 = damage) or defy danger to try to get away from the threat.

Does that sound about right?
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Scrape on August 23, 2012, 02:34:15 PM
This is how I read it: On a 7-9 Hack & Slash, you get to move against them. That attack can take any form the GM wants. Sure, you can simply deal damage but it's just as valid to say "you drive your sword into the ogre's stomach and it stumbles back from you, your weapon stuck in its gut. You can leap in to retrieve it, but the ogre is swinging wildly in pain and its fists are as big as your head..."

In this case, instead of damage you have Taken Away Their Stuff and set them up to Defy Danger maybe. Stuff like this keeps the battles real and not just trading damage. As long as the 7-9 is fundamentally a success, but with a cost, it's legit. The cost is whatever you say it is.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: (not that) adam on August 23, 2012, 05:11:22 PM
We were talking about this (http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=2881.msg17456#msg17456) some time ago. Maybe it's helpful.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: stras on August 24, 2012, 11:14:34 AM
@Dracones: You are right (as is Scrape right after you) I believe.  The difference is often one of proportion.  You deal damage and you take damage is certainly valid, but it's a scrum.  On a six-minus there is not only the possibility of a disproportionate hit (the ogre hits you with a tree, you go flying, your shield and sword dropped) where there isn't a 'give and take' or even ground in the fiction.  This is of course mitigated by tags and other things which muddles a perfectly clear answer (what if you're hit, but the monster has Forceful? Wouldn't you go flying then?  Well yes so long as the fiction isn't 100% opposed, but that's not the default case).

But on a 7-9 hack-and-slash you wouldn't for example collapse the ceiling, or light the room on fire.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Scrape on August 24, 2012, 06:24:59 PM
This is a good point; the soft move vs. hard move of 7-9 vs. 6-. Is this something explicit in the rules or is it intuited from the rest of the game? As far as I recall, the Hack&Slash text just says that the monster gets an attack either way. I mean it seems like a 6- would be worse but is it spelled out or do I just run with it 'cause it feels right?
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: noofy on August 24, 2012, 09:11:12 PM
I think its important to remember the basic move paradigm in these sorts of dissemination. To constantly add qualifications to each and every move on what could happen on a Strong Hit, Hit with complications or a Miss is unwieldy and actively works against the story-now ethos of DW.
The result of the roll falls into three categories: a 10+ is a strong hit. A 7–9 is a weak hit. A 6- is a miss.
Quote
Strong hits and weak hits are both hits. A hit means the character does what they set out to, more or less. A strong hit means they do it without much trouble or complications. A weak hit means complications and unpleasantries.
Sometimes, a weak hit will mean you need to make a hard decision about what to do next. The move will always say what to do for a strong and weak hit.
A miss means that the character's action is unsuccessful or carries major consequences. Unless the move tells you what to do, all moves work the same on a miss — the GM takes action, doing something dangerous to the characters.
p.11

Quote
When you make a move what you're actually doing is taking some element of the fiction and bringing it to bear against the characters. Your move should always follow from the fiction, and you never speak its name. Instead describe the fictional actions that take place which follow from the situation established.
p.127

Thus with Hack and Slash you can expect a hard move - major consequences and unpleasantries - injected into the narrative from the GM if you miss (which could be dealing damage and/or having one of the monster's attacks fictionally take effect, or it could be some other HARD move, so long as it follows from the fiction). Suck it up chump, you missed remember?
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Scrape on August 24, 2012, 11:45:11 PM
@Sarim Rune: I'm not sure if you're still following this thread, but I thought of some other advice that might help out a new Dungeon World GM. This is about triggering moves.

Players have a lot of options in DW, unlike some other games where there are only a few types of attacks, or specific rules for Dodging instead of Parrying or whatever. In Dungeon World, the PCs' actions should be based in the game fiction, and that means that they can try anything they want; they don't have to pick a move from the list, nor are they limited to moves that are listed. Sometimes the PC will do something during combat that doesn't trigger a move at all, like attacking a helpless or surprised enemy- that's not Hack&Slash, they just get to deal damage.

Sometimes it can be hard to figure out which move(s) to use, or what order to use them in. This is okay! Go with your gut and use what works at your table. Listen to what the player narrates, but also how the action is described, and that will give you an idea of which moves to call for. Sometimes you might ask a player to Defy Danger right before rolling a Hack & Slash; sometimes you might decide that the "danger" is part of the Hack & Slash, so the PC will only roll one move.

Every case is different, but one thing is the same:
You set up a situation and see how the player responds.
If the player's response clearly triggers a move from the list, then you call for that move and the results will tell you what happens.
If the player's response is clearly calls for a move but you're not sure which one, ask for more details and make a call. Defy Danger is a good place to start.
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: Scrape on August 24, 2012, 11:58:04 PM
Here's an example of a move triggering and a move not triggering, entirely based on fictional positioning.

Quote
Example 1
GM: "The goblin archer starts firing at you from across the room. What do you do?"
PC: "I dive for cover behind the pillar!"
GM: "Sounds like Defy Danger, roll +DEX to avoid the hail of arrows."

Quote
Example 2
GM: "The goblin archer starts firing at you from across the room. What do you do?"
PC: "I dive for cover behind the pillar!"
GM: "That's the one you were leaning on, right? So you're like right next to it? Yeah, you can duck behind it no problem. Arrows are flying past you like crazy, though, so getting out will be tough."

That's just an something I came up with off the top of my head; it's not like the PCs are expected to describe exactly where they're standing or something. But it's an example of not triggering a move because you've decided that there's no need to roll, given the circumstances of the game fiction.

It's helpful for the players and the GM to think of the game fiction first and the moves afterwards; I find that my players sometimes pick up the dice when they don't need to and I'm like, "No, you caught him totally off-guard and he's unarmed, don't bother rolling for Hack & Slash."

Maybe you'll find this useful, maybe not!
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: noofy on August 25, 2012, 12:37:51 AM
I like the way you think (and DM) Scrape! Spot on advice and clear examples of how the DW conversation could go :)
Title: Re: Confused and need help
Post by: mllaneza on August 27, 2012, 07:06:30 PM
I know when I first read DW I was like "how is there no initiative for combat??". But then what rpg has initiative for social interactions?


Diaspora actually. The designers extended the "opposed rolls, maneuvers and consequences on a zone map" FATE combat and ported it directly to social conflicts and murder mysteries.