Barf Forth Apocalyptica
barf forth apocalyptica => Apocalypse World => Topic started by: Al Billings on July 23, 2012, 08:19:11 PM
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I'm a newish AW MC. I've been running a game recently (we've had four sessions, I believe) and we're all new to AW. So, we've definitely not quite grok'd all of the gameplay versus other RPGs (we're all late 30-something to 40-something old hands).
As MC, a question came to me last night during a game. We had the hardholder, Colonel M'Beke, wandering across his hardhold and I decided to have a sniper from one of the fronts take a potshot at him.
In most games, I'd give M'Beke a chance to make some sort of perception check, as a kind of passive skill mechanic, to see if he knew anything is up. Me, as MC, telling M'Beke to read the sitch didn't seem write because that is an active move on his part but I couldn't think of any moves that are really passive. The players and their characters always do things to see what happens, which means they have a certain agency. They decide to do thing or something happens and they respond. It is always an active decision on their part.
So, the question is how would I resolve this desire to give M'Beke a chance to notice the sniper before he fires?
What I wound up actually doing is deciding that I didn't feel a driving need to give M'Beke two harm (he's already walking wounded from another fight) in order to have him notice, "Oh hey, there's a sniper!", when the bullet hits him. I had the shot miss but hit nearby and then M'Beke read the sitch, made a weak success and realized where the shot had come from. He then decided to move under fire to dive for some cover.
As a side issue, the fact that I, as MC, don't ever roll for NPCs still weird me out. I wind up in this situation where I simply have to decide whether an NPC harms a player or not in combat, for example. After a few decades of gaming, this feels very strange since I've always played in systems where NPCs have to make rolls too!
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It sounds like what you did is Announce Future Badness. And that's cool, because it's one of your moves. The near-miss from a bullet is the "announce", and then you followed up with "What do you do?" Sounds to me that's one correct way for it to play out.
There are other ways you could Announce Badness. "A glint from the rooftop catches your eye. There isn't really anything up there that should do that. What do you do?"
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Thanks. Yeah, I basically got that.
I guess the confusion here is the whole mechanic, from other RPGs, of "Oh, something is about to happen to the character that they have a chance to notice" followed by a skill roll.
Instead, I, as MC, simply decide, via my moves and story, what happens and then the characters react (which they did...it turned into a big snipe hunt).
The confusion was the realization that the players really don't have passive moves and skills don't exist in AW as game attributes. So, unless a character has decided to "read the sitch", you as the MC have to simply decide what you want to happen in order for the players to "play to see what happens."
This is related, as I say, to the whole "I decide whether they take damage and how much" aspect of being MC.
As a newish MC, I'm still wrapping my head around this.
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I have a side game play question that is kind of unrelated except in being an issue of being a n00b MC here.
After the sniper fired, I had another PC, Jess the Saavyhead, who heard the shot, rush into the area to help.
Jess managed to get shot (I gave 1 harm from a long range hit) and started working through cover (acting under fire) to get close to the sniper. Jess took long enough doing that and bungled a role later, that I basically decided the sniper saw Jess and figured the jig was up, bugging out. Jess had read the sitch earlier when shot and figured out the location of the sniper while shooting (per the questions in the AW rulebook) and, when Jess got to near the location, read the sitch again to try to figure out whether to throw in a grenade through a window or come in shooting through a different door.
Of course, my sniper had bugged out already so then I had a conflict with a player where they said, "I roll a 7 and read the sitch. The question is the true location of the enemy inside the structure" and I said "Well, you don't think anyone is in there." We then had a minor disagreement about whether I was violating the spirit of the rules by not telling him where the sniper was after he'd made a roll.
My justification as MC was:
a) I didn't want him to know where the sniper was yet because it would cause the scene to end (they didn't know who the sniper was and I wanted it to play out a bit as part of a Front).
b) The sniper was gone so I don't care if you made a roll to identify where they are in a place that they've already left.
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In that situation, I probably would've dropped a clue to where the person went... "You don't see anyone in the tower, but if you spend a minute looking around you find some dusty footprints...".
For the actual sniper shot, here's another way to handle it...
"You hear a loud bang - a gunshot! - and glance in the direction of the noise. You've got only a split-second to notice that there's a bullet headed for you. What do you do?".
Then, they could (for example) be all "I drop to the ground and hope it misses me!" and act under fire, or "I use my psychic force of will to stop the bullet!" and you're like "You can do that? Since when? How?" and maybe it's a custom move, or "I try to angle so that it catches the most solid part of my bullet-proof vest, of course.". You see?
- Alex
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The confusion was the realization that the players really don't have passive moves and skills don't exist in AW as game attributes. So, unless a character has decided to "read the sitch", you as the MC have to simply decide what you want to happen in order for the players to "play to see what happens."
This is related, as I say, to the whole "I decide whether they take damage and how much" aspect of being MC.
As a newish MC, I'm still wrapping my head around this.
Yup. But it sounds like you're getting it. Follow the principals. Be a fan of the characters. Make Apocalypse World seem real. Play to find out.
The question is the true location of the enemy inside the structure" and I said "Well, you don't think anyone is in there." We then had a minor disagreement about whether I was violating the spirit of the rules by not telling him where the sniper was after he'd made a roll.
Read a Sitch has a list of questions right? If they ask, you "Always say what honesty demands."
One question, you're having everyone make the Harm move right?
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My justification as MC was:
a) I didn't want him to know where the sniper was yet because it would cause the scene to end (they didn't know who the sniper was and I wanted it to play out a bit as part of a Front).
b) The sniper was gone so I don't care if you made a roll to identify where they are in a place that they've already left.
Well a) is not really appropriate, unless it falls under 'make the PCs' lives interesting' and the scene has really dragged on -- but b) makes sense to me. If there are no enemies there, then there's no enemies there, you don't invent one just so the question has a more useful answer. Suggesting where they've gone (as suggested above) also seems like a fine idea.
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@AB, Why was protecting the sniper so important to you? I'm not saying you had to tell him. Deciding what to say when the character reads a sitch has to be grounded in the fiction, but concerns about prolonging the scene or the fact that he's gone to a safe place seem to run counter to Looking at the NPC through the crosshairs.
Reading a sitch isn't magic. But there were tons of ways to give that player information, if you were being a fan of the character. Why not look for ways to give the character interesting info rather than rationalizing not giving him any?
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It took me a moment to get used to MC'ing, too. This is what it boils down to: in other games, you the GM have dice and procedures for decision making tools. In Apocalypse World, you have the Principles and Moves instead. The Principles and Moves are your dice and procedures. That's why the start of the MC section says "follow these as rules."
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If the dude wasn't in the room, and there was no way to find him because he was long gone, then how was it a charged situation?
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Would have been Act Under Fire, IMO.
I had a similar situation when I was running my Conan hack using "The Tower of the Elephant" story as inspiration.
A lion ambushes a PC. How did I do this?
"The hairs on the back of your neck stand up. You suddenly feel the threat of imminent doom at your back and you hear the slightest of rustling. -Roll to Act Under Fire."
On a hit they react in time to avoid Harm. Either way the realize a lion is attacking them.
In your case with the sniper I would have told the PC, "You are traipsing along and get the hideous sensation that you are being watched, in that moment you feel the threat of imminent doom as a large-caliber rifle fires in the distance. -Roll to Act Under Fire."
On a hit they drop prone, 10+ they take no Harm, 7-9, they might take some harm. On a miss you make your hard move. Either way they now realize a sniper is firing at them.
Anyway, that's how I would do it. I use Act Under Fire for reacting to a threat, ambush, or trap. I have them roll it "as it's happening". It's happening RIGHT NOW. If there is reason for them to Read a Sitch first and they do so, that's cool. Like if they know they are walking into a mine field. But if they don't, I use Act Under Fire as a kind of 'saving throw' to save as much skin as they can.
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If the dude wasn't in the room, and there was no way to find him because he was long gone, then how was it a charged situation?
Because it was charged. It was a sniper attack. During the course of the attack and then the player character follow ups (where one decided to move up on position but missed a roll to move under fire), the sniper saw he was being closed in on and bailed. He was positioned on how ground under cover (in a wall made out of ruined jets) so he had quite a bit of time to get out of there before the PC snuck across 50 yards of ground, clambered up and then read the sitch to see where the sniper was a second time. (This was not the character who was initially being shot at, the Colonel, but his saavyhead who was near enough by to hear the gunshots in the distance. The colonel was re-living the concept of basic training by crawling through a ditch and getting his ass down, acting under fire, to get away at this point.)
Are you saying that I shouldn't have let the player (who thought there was still a sniper in the construct in front of them) read the sitch because the sniper saw that he was going to get caught and bailed?
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In your case with the sniper I would have told the PC, "You are traipsing along and get the hideous sensation that you are being watched, in that moment you feel the threat of imminent doom as a large-caliber rifle fires in the distance. -Roll to Act Under Fire."
On a hit they drop prone, 10+ they take no Harm, 7-9, they might take some harm. On a miss you make your hard move. Either way they now realize a sniper is firing at them.
Anyway, that's how I would do it. I use Act Under Fire for reacting to a threat, ambush, or trap. I have them roll it "as it's happening". It's happening RIGHT NOW. If there is reason for them to Read a Sitch first and they do so, that's cool. Like if they know they are walking into a mine field. But if they don't, I use Act Under Fire as a kind of 'saving throw' to save as much skin as they can.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
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If the dude wasn't in the room, and there was no way to find him because he was long gone, then how was it a charged situation?
Are you saying that I shouldn't have let the player (who thought there was still a sniper in the construct in front of them) read the sitch because the sniper saw that he was going to get caught and bailed?
Exactly. The room was empty. The situation wasn't really charged anymore. No move. Just tell the character what he finds when he searches the room, maybe announce a little future badness, and ask someone what they're doing now.
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If the dude wasn't in the room, and there was no way to find him because he was long gone, then how was it a charged situation?
Are you saying that I shouldn't have let the player (who thought there was still a sniper in the construct in front of them) read the sitch because the sniper saw that he was going to get caught and bailed?
Exactly. The room was empty. The situation wasn't really charged. No move. Just tell the character what he finds in the room, maybe announce a little future badness, and ask someone what they're doing now.
Except he was outside and wanting to read the sitch. It completely deflates the tension of the situation if I tell him no one is there...thud. Anti-climax.
It is a narrative after all.
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To put it another way, he does all this work trying to sneak up, to avoid getting shot... he works his way up, finally gets there, sneaks around the outside of the structure, trying to decide how he's going to get in and sneak up on a gunman...and then I go, "Oh, he's gone. Nothing there. Sorry"?
Sounds like bad gamemastering to me. Not fun for the people playing.
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To put it another way, he does all this work trying to sneak up, to avoid getting shot... he works his way up, finally gets there, sneaks around the outside of the structure, trying to decide how he's going to get in and sneak up on a gunman...and then I go, "Oh, he's gone. Nothing there. Sorry"?
Sounds like bad gamemastering to me. Not fun for the people playing.
But that's exactly what you did. Only you made him make a roll first that should tell him where his enemy's true position is (somewhere else), what he should be on the look out for (um...dust balls), etc.
If he sneaks across and bursts into an empty room, you give him all the detail and apocalyptic color your heart desires about the room, the cigarette butt he's left burning, the acrid smell of him....Why is it better to make him roll and then not give him answers because they're not there to be found? The character is searching a room, he's entitled to that action, it's not necessarily a Move.
A charged situation is a situation with tension that's ready to blow. When the character reads it, the MC knows basically what their options are. On a miss, it's easy. The charge goes off. What's your move if the dude missed his read a sitch on the empty room?
I stand by what I said.
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"What's the sniper's true position?"
"You're looking through the crack between the boards of the wall, and it's all quiet and empty in there. If it was me, I would have lit out of there the second after I fired. It's all barren field to the North, so... South probably? In the tall trees there. Great place to hide and shoot anyone that follows me."
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"What's the sniper's true position?"
"You're looking through the crack between the boards of the wall, and it's all quiet and empty in there. If it was me, I would have lit out of there the second after I fired. It's all barren field to the North, so... South probably? In the tall trees there. Great place to hide and shoot anyone that follows me."
and that is a good point since he basically high tailed it out of there into the badlands to the North and then circled back to join the "guards" of the colonel since it turns out...he's one of them. :-)
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Hello, first time poster, long time lurker here. Necroe'd this thread as it was the most relevant regarding to my question and situation.
I'd like to MC a scenario, where the party is escorting a motor convoy through the wasteland and they are being ambushed by bandits. How bandits operate is by using roadside bombs /mines to stall the convoy and then attacking head on. The start of the scene should play out two ways:
a) The party notices the bomb and can then take defensive measures, possibly gaining leverage over bandits as they are now expecting the ambush and are not in fact getting bombed.
b) The bomb goes off damaging the some vehicles in a convoy and possibly stalling it. Ambushers attack.
I'd like the ambush to be a surprise to both characters and players and I think the suggested "Spider sense is tingling - roll 'read sitch'/'do something under fire'" would spoil the surprise. How would you approach a scene like this, offering the party a chance to discover the explosives without explicitly or implicitly stating that something bad is going to happen?
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Announce future badness
Maybe drop some hints that something might be off. Is this is the modus operandi of the bandits? Pepper your description of the journey and the road with some burned out husks of previous victims. An npc along for the ride who's a little twitchy, maybe they've heard rumors, maybe they're an insider, maybe they have a deathwish/axe to grind with the bandits and are hoping to run into them, whatever fits being a fan of your players most.
Result of a hard move
It's well within reason to trigger the trap on a hard move. Doesn't have to be related to the roll. You can try bait this out by giving them things to do with rolls during the "safe bit" at the start as you establish a nice atmosphere. Maybe there's a convoy vehicle that could use the savvy head's touch. Maybe there's an npc dispute for the touchstone. Angel patients, that sort of thing. They'll be too busy doing what they do best to suspect. Until an unlucky roll happens...
Inflict harm (as established).
Just trigger the trap. If the scene is dragging and no one has done anything to detect it, or rolled <7. Really remember to be a fan of the players with this one.
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First of all, I want to strongly disagree with the use of Act Under Fire as a saving throw, since that's not what it is. The MC doesn't tell the players what their characters do, just provide them opportunities to react. So you should never say, "You feel a sense of unease; roll AUF," and then tell them what they do based on the roll. Instead, say, "You feel a sense of unease [or whatever]; what do you do?" and then whatever they say their character does might be Acting Under Fire (if they say they drop to the ground, for example) but it might also be something else. (E.g. "I ignore it" is probably a golden opportunity for you to deal harm, no roll required.)
Now, that said, I understand your impulse to want to preserve the surprise, but I'd say forget about that. It isn't your job to surprise the characters or players. Rather, your job is to be a fan of the characters, make their lives not boring, and play to find out what happens. You have to at least implicitly tell them something bad is going to happen, because simply framing the scene does that. Unless the very first thing that happens in the scene is them getting blown up, the fact that you didn't skip ahead to the end of the journey implies that something is going to happen, and since this is AW, it probably isn't good. They're driving through bandit country, though, so it makes sense that they'd be on their guard anyway.
So go ahead and start off with that nice soft "announce future badness" move. What's the tell-tale sign of these explosives? Maybe the road, usually hard-packed dirt baked dry by the sun, has a dark patch where it's been dug up ahead. Tell the Driver that and ask, "What do you do?" Then play the scene out from there. If they keep driving, boom, inflict harm. If they stop and get out, maybe the bandits attack or maybe they set off the mines themselves, depending on their actions and the results of their rolls.
ETA: The "future badness" can be even earlier, too. When they set off, let them know this trip is going to be dangerous (they've heard rumors about the bandits, have had confrontations with them before, or just see the burnt-out cars along the road) and ask if they plan to do anything about it. Then use whatever they say going forward. "I'll keep a close eye for anything out of the ordinary" might qualify as Read A Sitch, and a successful roll will let them see the trap as they approach (any of "what's my enemy's true position," "where's my best way past," or "what should I be on the lookout for" will work here) and a failed roll will lead them straight into it. Maybe they'll reinforce their cars with armor before they leave in the hopes that they can plow right through any ambush, in which case you'll deal harm as established and see if they were right. Maybe they'll send one car up ahead of the caravan to trigger any ambushes, which the rest of the caravan can then go around, in which case you deal harm as established to the scout vehicle and ask what they do with the rest of the caravan. Or heck, maybe they'll just decide to go the long way 'round, through the burn flats instead of the marginally more habitable land around the main road.
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Thank you for your answers. Based on your input I think the best way to go is to make it clear before the scene, that the possibility for a bandit attack exists and is even likely (why else they would be hired to escort the convoy?).
Another method I was thinking is to move them to a natural formation such as a canyon. After telling them about it, I'll ask them what to do. If they search it they might find the bomb or the bandits. Driving through blindly is a bad idea. I think starting the scene at the canyon entrance makes sense, as possibility for a bandit attack exists and arriving to a location which is both tricky to navigate and limits vision naturally pauses the party to weigh their options. Maybe they take a detour and arrive to destination late causing their employer dissatisfaction.
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Why don't you just start the game by asking them which vehicle explodes?
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Why don't you just start the game by asking them which vehicle explodes?
I don't know what to make of this. Care to elaborate?
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Sure, I guess I'm suggesting your choice #2. If the goal is to surprise them with an ambush, I'd rather start blowing stuff up and then ask the players what they do about it. Starting them at a canyon that pauses the party and causing them to detour and upset their employers seems less grabby then just blowing up one of the cars, killing Bricker and blowing Anthrax's leg off, then opening up with a 50 caliber on the hill, bullets everywhere. Anthrax is screaming "My leg! My leg!" And you turn to the battle babe "So what do you do?"
So, I'd just turn to one of them and ask a leading question, like "where are you when Monarch's rig explodes?"
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Oh yeah, if this is the very first thing that happens, then just go with noclue's thing for sure. Starting in media res is awesome.
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Sure, I guess I'm suggesting your choice #2. If the goal is to surprise them with an ambush, I'd rather start blowing stuff up and then ask the players what they do about it. Starting them at a canyon that pauses the party and causing them to detour and upset their employers seems less grabby then just blowing up one of the cars, killing Bricker and blowing Anthrax's leg off, then opening up with a 50 caliber on the hill, bullets everywhere. Anthrax is screaming "My leg! My leg!" And you turn to the battle babe "So what do you do?"
So, I'd just turn to one of them and ask a leading question, like "where are you when Monarch's rig explodes?"
I really like this and am probably going to use this, but my goal was to give players a chance to prevent being ambushed while simultaneously avoid laying out the ambush right out of the gate. Your approach will come handy though, if there hasn't been enough action in a while.
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I really like this and am probably going to use this, but my goal was to give players a chance to prevent being ambushed while simultaneously avoid laying out the ambush right out of the gate.
Sure, I get that. I do wonder whether giving them a chance to avoid the ambush is a worthwhile goal.
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I think that if you're not going to lay the ambush out right off ("suprise! now what do you do?"), you should make it clear to the players that there IS an ambush and it's likely going to be here. Start making soft moves - hints that things are wrong, and then ask them what they do. Let them Read a Sitch and all the usual stuff.
They still don't know what's going to happen or when - but the players won't be caught completely unawares. The characters, of course, could be caught unawares if they hand you opportunities for such or fail critical rolls.
In other words, the ambush is a zoomed-in version of the usual AW conversation:
MC: "It looks like there's danger heading your way! What do you do?"
PC: "I'll try X..."
MC: "Ok, you're acting under fire/some other move!"
PC rolls and we see if they manage to stay in control of the situation or get ambushed.
A sidenote:
Ambushes generally work best if there's some kind of competing pressure at work. If you have all the time in the world to go another way or poke at everything with a stick, it's not terribly interesting. In Mad Max, for instance, the characters often have to deal with ambush - or potential ambush - while in the middle of a choice. That makes the choices meaningful: you can slow down to check for tripwires, but then your pursuers might catch up with you.
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I really like this and am probably going to use this, but my goal was to give players a chance to prevent being ambushed while simultaneously avoid laying out the ambush right out of the gate.
Sure, I get that. I do wonder whether giving them a chance to avoid the ambush is a worthwhile goal.
That's another cryptic statement. So, perhaps I should unpack my thoughts. The discussion started with your conflicting desires to preserve surprise while giving the players a chance to avoid the ambush, which seemed to be at odds. I think the issue of surprise was discussed well already, but the problem I see with both of these goals is they're making you consider passive GM moves and the game is bucking against it. There are no passive GM moves. Announce Future Badness has an active verb. It's an announcement. A proclamation.
While you can kind of twist announce future badness to fit the situation, I don't think it's a great fit. Putting the players somewhere where they know that you know that they know the caravan is going to be ambushed and getting them to roll Read a Sitch or something isn't, to my admittedly idiosyncratic way of thinking, announcing future badness. It's more like implying future badness. The badness is vague and unformed. You've clearly established all manner of potential harm but the players are still looking around for what the badness will be. That's pretty much the default state in AW.
In my example, I didn't really spring the ambush on the players. Not really. There was absolutely no chance that any of the players were going to get hurt by that explosion. None of their stuff was damaged or taken away. I blew up only my own stuff. My NPCs, my vehicles. My stuff is always in the crosshairs. You used your stuff to announce future badness by describing a canyon. JustusGS used his stuff to describe hard packed dirt. I decided to make a definitive statement with my stuff. Here be badness! Then I followed up with another GM move--Put someone on the spot. These are not passive moves, but the fiction is immediately flowing, I'm firmly guided by the GM principles. If they trigger a move like Read a Sitch, I can quickly respond to a miss as easily as a 12+. There lives are not boring, im putting my bloody fingerprints on everything.
And, I think I probably surprised the hell out of em to boot.
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Thank you for the insight. Now I have a better view of the mechanics of the game as well as many new ideas to run different scences. :)