Barf Forth Apocalyptica

barf forth apocalyptica => Apocalypse World => Topic started by: Michael Pfaff on August 11, 2010, 12:30:20 PM

Title: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Michael Pfaff on August 11, 2010, 12:30:20 PM
It's obvious I can build one... Find a junkyard, tools, maybe a crew to work on stuff (hell, the Driver has an improvement for this), but once I build a "workspace" could I go in and use it like a Savvyhead?

And, I'm talking descriptively building a workspace, not prescriptively getting one (through a Driver's improvement for example).

Can a non-Savvyhead use a workspace?
For that matter, can the Driver use a workspace (once he takes it as improvement) as though he were a Savvyhead?


Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Chris on August 11, 2010, 12:33:25 PM
As in, if I buy a garage, I'm suddenly an amazing techhead guy.

Also, Michael and I talked about gaining moves descriptively...

I'm against it; thoughts?
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Michael Pfaff on August 11, 2010, 12:42:38 PM
As in, if I buy a garage, I'm suddenly an amazing techhead guy.

Also, Michael and I talked about gaining moves descriptively...

I'm against it; thoughts?


That's not what I said.

Shall I post the convo?
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Chris on August 11, 2010, 12:43:56 PM
As in, if I buy a garage, I'm suddenly an amazing techhead guy.

Also, Michael and I talked about gaining moves descriptively...

I'm against it; thoughts?


That's not what I said.

Shall I post the convo?

nah, let's see what other people have to say.
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Chris on August 11, 2010, 12:45:35 PM
As in, if I buy a garage, I'm suddenly an amazing techhead guy.

Also, Michael and I talked about gaining moves descriptively...

I'm against it; thoughts?


That's not what I said.

Shall I post the convo?

The question comes from this:

If I'm a brainer, and I spend barter to buy a garage and a van and controlled growing environment, then can I just make things?

Right?
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Michael Pfaff on August 11, 2010, 12:46:12 PM

Also, Michael and I talked about gaining moves descriptively...

I'm against it; thoughts?


The example move we used was an Angel's "Infirmary" move.

Chris is fine with a player rolling Hot 5 times to "earn" an Infirmary, but not with an Angel spending 5 sessions negotiating with the Hardholder to earn a space, working on people to earn enough barter for a medical station, and fucking people enough to get them as assistants to "earn" an infirmary.

I disagree. Obviously. It's heated. We come to the boards for arbitration.
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Chris on August 11, 2010, 12:48:23 PM

Also, Michael and I talked about gaining moves descriptively...

I'm against it; thoughts?


The example move we used was an Angel's "Infirmary" move.

Chris is fine with a player rolling Hot 5 times to "earn" an Infirmary, but not with an Angel spending 5 sessions negotiating with the Hardholder to earn a space, working on people to earn enough barter for a medical station, and fucking people enough to get them as assistants to "earn" an infirmary.

I disagree. Obviously. It's heated. We come to the boards for arbitration.

Nah, an Angel CAN make an infirmary descriptively. That makes sense. But can a skinner? And then just fix people?

How far does the descriptive/proscriptive thing go?
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Michael Pfaff on August 11, 2010, 12:50:11 PM
The question comes from this:

If I'm a brainer, and I spend barter to buy a garage and a van and controlled growing environment, then can I just make things?

Right?

That's kind of a gross hyperbole of my question. It was more like this:

me:  Maybe I'll multiclass into Savvyhead and make it myself. ;)
Chris:  there you go
hnmmmm
you can;t
I remember why Vincent changed it
Workspace isn't a mvoe
move
hahahaha
me:  Right, it's just an object. I could build a workspace right?
Then I just need the moves to back it up.
 Sent at 12:06 PM on Wednesday
Chris:  no, see the savvuhead CAN make shit because they get a workspace
it's not a move
it used to be
early on
then vincent changed it
what moves back it up?
me:  Right, but a workspace is just "three things" a van, a darkroom and a controlled growing environment...
Chris:  yeah
but that how you make shit
you can put together a warehosue
me:  So, if I got some of those things, like... say a "junkyard" and a "van" etc...
I'd have a workspace right?
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Michael Pfaff on August 11, 2010, 12:53:34 PM

Also, Michael and I talked about gaining moves descriptively...

I'm against it; thoughts?


The example move we used was an Angel's "Infirmary" move.

Chris is fine with a player rolling Hot 5 times to "earn" an Infirmary, but not with an Angel spending 5 sessions negotiating with the Hardholder to earn a space, working on people to earn enough barter for a medical station, and fucking people enough to get them as assistants to "earn" an infirmary.

I disagree. Obviously. It's heated. We come to the boards for arbitration.

Nah, an Angel CAN make an infirmary descriptively. That makes sense. But can a skinner? And then just fix people?


Wtf? You said they couldn't. You wouldn't allow it. You said you'd never allow anyone to take a "move" descriptively.

me:  So, you'd never let an Angel get an "Infirmary" fictionally because it's a move?
Chris:  hmmm
me:  That's retarded imo.
Chris:  no
me:  :)
Chris:  I wouldn't it
I mean, it's not meant to simulate reality
me: I mean, you can MC how you want. But if I were MCing and a player went out of his way in the fiction to secure a location, some medical supplies and a crew, I'd give them that move.
OBVIOUSLY his "circumstances and capabilities" have fictionally changed.
Chris:  maybe
me:  He should change his sheet to match.
Plain. Simple.
Chris:  I mean, it breaks the game
 me:  I don't think it breaks the game at all.
Chris:  I'm not going to bother with moves or improvements
why HAVE the game
we can play and if it happens in fiction, then it does
me:  You're getting those things by PLAYING the game.
Chris:  it's not a game anymore
me:  Maybe I'm PLAYING to get an infirmary?
Chris:  it's a story
me:  What matters if I do it by rolling fucking Hot 5 times or by doing it over 5 sessions of roleplay?
Hilarious.
:)
Chris:  But that breaks the reason to take it as a move
I would never do that then
me:  Not really.
Chris:  why would I

---

But check it, let's not rehash our argument. Let's let some other peeps chime in. I'm super interested in how the whole Descriptive vs. Prescriptive battle pans out.
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: lumpley on August 11, 2010, 01:04:23 PM
A non-savvyhead can use a workspace.

The crucial check on it is "but first you'll have to figure out ___."

-Vincent
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Chris on August 11, 2010, 01:07:01 PM
Ahhhhhhhh.

So first the brainer is gonna need like 3 years of engineering school. Good luck.


Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Michael Pfaff on August 11, 2010, 01:10:06 PM
Ahhhhhhhh.

So first the brainer is gonna need like 3 years of engineering school. Good luck.




So long as I CAN do it fictionally, I'm happy.

Thanks for the quick response, Vincent.
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Chris on August 11, 2010, 01:11:11 PM
A non-savvyhead can use a workspace.

The crucial check on it is "but first you'll have to figure out ___."

-Vincent

And taking moves descriptively? Like how far does that go? Is it GM fiat, I guess? Because if it is, Michael's not getting shit.

In fact, I'm changing my principles to "Michael never gets what he wants". That's the only one. :)
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: lumpley on August 11, 2010, 01:19:37 PM
"GM fiat" is a bullshit term. (No blame! It just is.) Descriptive improvement isn't subject to GM fiat -- that's just bullshit.

Descriptive improvement is the GM's call, legit and aboveboard, subject to the GM's agenda and principles.
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Michael Pfaff on August 11, 2010, 01:24:32 PM

And taking moves descriptively? Like how far does that go? Is it GM fiat, I guess? Because if it is, Michael's not getting shit.

In fact, I'm changing my principles to "Michael never gets what he wants". That's the only one. :)

Hasn't this been your principle in all of our games?? :)
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Chris on August 11, 2010, 01:25:33 PM
"GM fiat" is a bullshit term. (No blame! It just is.) Descriptive improvement isn't subject to GM fiat -- that's just bullshit.

Descriptive improvement is the GM's call, legit and aboveboard, subject to the GM's agenda and principles.


And my only principle is "Michael never gets what he wants". So cool....   :)

But yeah, I hate it, too. That's why I'm not comfortable with it. I hate it being on me as far as people's "improvements". I mean, we're all "roleplayers", right? We'd never ignore the story and just push for improvement, right?

So when someone wants something, it's not my job to make sure he doesn't get it. But it's also not my job to give out shit like Christmas candy, either. The players know that, so they've ALWAYS got a legitimate reason for wanting it. And I hate telling them yes or no.

I'm a robot automaton, Vincent. I NEED clear instructions, preferably in punchcard format. :)

Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: lumpley on August 11, 2010, 01:29:47 PM
"Give the players whatever they can justify" isn't one of the principles. I don't care what they can justify, and neither should you. Use the punchcard instructions I've given you, for pity sake!

There's a section in the advanced fuckery chapter about adding moves to players' character sheets, so look there too if you haven't.
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Chris on August 11, 2010, 01:31:21 PM
Hahahaha. I'll do that. I've been meaning to get around to reading the book.........




:)
Title: Re: Can a non-Savvyhead use a Workspace?
Post by: Michael Pfaff on August 11, 2010, 01:54:58 PM
But yeah, I hate it, too. That's why I'm not comfortable with it. I hate it being on me as far as people's "improvements". I mean, we're all "roleplayers", right? We'd never ignore the story and just push for improvement, right?

So when someone wants something, it's not my job to make sure he doesn't get it. But it's also not my job to give out shit like Christmas candy, either. The players know that, so they've ALWAYS got a legitimate reason for wanting it. And I hate telling them yes or no.

Your job isn't to say "Yes or no." But, you can certainly "make the character's lives not boring" when they go looking for improvement fictionally (and why wouldn't they [me]).

If I say, "Man, I wish Burroughs had a pain wave projector. Is there a Savvyhead around? Nope. Can I build a workspace? What'll that take?" Is that a perfect setup to:

Play to find out what happens
Make the character's lives not boring
Ask provocative questions and build on the answers
Respond with fuckery and intermittent rewards
Be a fan of the player's character
Think offscreen too


And, if they (I) do succeed after overcoming those obstacles, remember: "The way to make a character’s success interesting is to make it consequential. When a character accomplishes something, have all of your NPCs respond."

In sum, don't hand out shit like Christmas candy OR say no. Say, "Yes, but..."