Barf Forth Apocalyptica
barf forth apocalyptica => Apocalypse World => Topic started by: Dodger on August 09, 2010, 08:00:23 PM
-
Hi Guys,
I have a couple of questions on handling the skinner move "An Arresting Skinner."
Here's the text:
An arresting skinner: when you remove a piece of clothing,
your own or someone else’s, no one who can see you can do
anything but watch. You command their absolute attention. If
you choose, you can exempt individual people, by name.
My questions all surround this hypothetical situation:
The text would seem to indicate that a skinner player could take off an article of clothing very slowly and force Player 2 to do nothing. The skinner could then exempt Player 3. The Player 3 could then shoot, maim, otherwise mutilate Player 2 without Player 2 being able to do anything (except maybe interfere with a history roll).
So, the questions:
1) If player 2 survives, and the skinner says she's still stripping, does Player 2 still have to stand there and take round after round of abuse from Player 3?
2) Can player 2 opt-out of the situation in any way? Maybe by acting under fire?
In the case of player 2 being replaced by an NPC, I'd say fuck him. We're looking at him through the crosshairs and giving the skinner PC the full benefit of her moves, so the NPC can just die.
But in the case of all PCs, isn't someone being deprived of the full benefits of their moves here?
* In the case that player 2 is just fucked and can't do anything, he's the one deprived (of moves and even of the ability to play his character after a while).
* In the case the player 2 can do something to look away, the skinner's player is deprived.
If the MC decides to rule in favor of either, or to veto the exchange, someone is being deprived, right? In any case, any feedback to help get my mind straight on this issue would be appreciated.
-
Depends on the situation, but I might rule that doing anything else besides staring at the Skinner is Acting Under Fire for PCs. For NPCs, you're totally right, fuck 'em. For PCs too, doing anything that's not outright murdering them is probably A-OK too (no roll allowed), since the move doesn't really offer them an out. AW isn't fair.
Also, when somebody is totally paralyzed like that, I'm not sure why you'd even bother thinking in "rounds" or whatever. You probably wouldn't deal normal damage or whatever. You'd just slit somebody's throat or gut them like a fish. Dead. Forget about Harm. D-E-D, dead.
-
This came up in my last game session. The Skinner started stripping and exempted the Battlebabe. The Battlebabe then took all of the Gunlugger's guns away. He was like "I can't do anything about them taking my guns?"
I've limited the move at times in the past. My Skinner was captured during a battle and wanted to (while restrained) start removing clothing to completely end the battle while her allies cleaned up. I didn't allow that, but I'm not sure how crazy this move is supposed to be...
-
Well, keep the world real, and make the character's lives interesting, and giving them an unbeatable combat combo that involves distracting entire groups of people while you take off your clothes doesn't really seem either, does it, unless you accept that it's a supernatural effect, yeah?
But I mean, I've been there. Standing at a post as a security guard at the casino, mostly only checking to make sure minors or people with large luggage don't get on the gaming floor, and somebody so damn fucking hot walks by that all my higher brain functions just shut down, and I just stop and stare for a bit despite myself. I think we've all been there, right?
Now imagine, just like a dream, just like a gift from the gods, they start taking off their clothes. Slowly, teasingly, revealing more and more of that perfect skin, that perfect body.
And furthermore imagine that up until now, everyone you've ever seen in this goddamn world has been diseased, starving, unwashed, broken and scarred by the harsh and merciless cruelties of day to day life that everyone's got to labor under, and this is the first vision of true beauty that you've ever seen. Nothing else even compares.
And sure, part of your brain is probably going "this has to be a trap!!!" even if you don't want to listen to it. And if you're a PC, maybe you can act under that all-consuming fire, maybe some movement in the corner of your vision, or some half-heard sound of somebody approaching you from behind diverts your attention for a crucial second, and the spell is broken.
But maybe it doesn't. Maybe you could die a happy man, or woman, or whatever, having seen what you've seen today. Maybe that'd be all right. And all you can think is "Let those other fuckers go first, because the skinner's about to get to the good stuff."
-
Ben,
Or all your brain functions turn off when they're removing the hat from the fat guy next to them. Piece of clothing, someone else's.
I dunno, this move is the move that bugs me the most of all the moves in the game. Most of the equivalent moves (battlebabes holding people's eyes, hypnosis, etc) have limitations on them that are pretty obvious and often mechanically enforced.
This one doesn't have those limits and it irritates me. Both because of the gameness of it and because of the "Yes sure skinners are hot but fuck, how dumb are these bastards anyway"ness of it.
That skinners are that hot sometimes, in limited situations or with some resistance, that's cool. That skinners are that hot just cause they're taking off their sock? Not so much.
Now, wait for Vincent to come along and convince me that I'm wrong.
-
Um, it's obviously a supernatural power. Other types have supernatural powers, too.
So....
-
Arresting Skinner is a good "move from another playbook" for a Battlebabe with Impossible Reflexes to take, so if she gets into trouble with her clothes still on, she can buy time to strip and get her 2-armor.
But it is the move I like least, because of its unconditional nature. I'd rather see it roll+Hot as a Seduce with "Don't take your eyes off me and I'll show you something wonderful", which PCs could then either deal with by Acting Under Fire or Marking Experience.
-
I was thinking about reading this as "When the Skinner does their shtick" rather than specifically stripping. I have a Skinner character in mind who's a bony old Asian dude with the world's last cello, and while I cannot imagine him fascinating anybody with a peek at his underwear, I can totally imagine him improvising a gigue on the cello which overwhelms everybody in hearing distance. I could imagine the same thing with a thespian capturing everybody with his declamation of the St. Crispin's Day speech form Shakespeare.
I'm sure someone will be along soon to explain why I'm wrong.
-
You are wrong. I would love to see that bony old Asian guy's underwear.
-
Yeah. This move is crazy.
-
That isn't even the Skinner's best move!
Don't worry about it. It's good.
-
That isn't even the Skinner's best move!
Don't worry about it. It's good.
It just seems too similar to Artful & gracious and Hypnotic, and less evocative and with less interesting choices (does An arresting skinner have any choices involved?).
Hmmm.
-
It just seems too similar to Artful & gracious and Hypnotic, and less evocative and with less interesting choices (does An arresting skinner have any choices involved?).
Hmmm.
Well, they are all variations on the theme, aren't they? And to point out, you don't HAVE to take it. It's just for those incarnations of a skinner where the physicality of their actions really plays in. If I was playing the cellist I would avoid that move. There's so many interesting moves that can be stolen from other playbooks as well, y'know?
-
Well, they are all variations on the theme, aren't they? And to point out, you don't HAVE to take it. It's just for those incarnations of a skinner where the physicality of their actions really plays in. If I was playing the cellist I would avoid that move. There's so many interesting moves that can be stolen from other playbooks as well, y'know?
Yeah. I don't mind the concept of the move, so much as its execution, like others have said.
Most importantly, I prefer the moves that create choices. This move doesn't really. It's like, "Do this and this happens."
Unlike, say, Hypnotic, where they become fixated on you and then you can make choices about the effects.
It's just a minor difference of style I guess.
-
I have a Skinner character in mind who's a bony old Asian dude with the world's last cello
Hey, WTF!?!?!? That was MY idea!!! :)
Plus, I always forget that the skinner isn't ALWAYS sexual. It's just as easy to play an old man who plays the last remaining cello.
I KNEW I should have copy written that.
-
You can't copywright playing Yo-Yo Ma in the post-apocalypse. That's practically everybody's first character concept!
-
I have a Skinner character in mind who's a bony old Asian dude with the world's last cello
Hey, WTF!?!?!? That was MY idea!!! :)
Maybe it sank right into my subconscious and bubbled up as if it had been born there. Thanks; that idea is made of awesome.
Next: Postapocalyptic Yo-Yo Ma as Hardholder.
-
I have a Skinner character in mind who's a bony old Asian dude with the world's last cello
Hey, WTF!?!?!? That was MY idea!!! :)
Maybe it sank right into my subconscious and bubbled up as if it had been born there. Thanks; that idea is made of awesome.
Next: Postapocalyptic Yo-Yo Ma as Hardholder.
Yeah, I was just messing with you. I saw that and I was like, where did I see that before? :)
-
I actually pitched the skinner to my group using that example, and everyone loved it. It has a lot of resonance.
-
I think it's a big mistake to make it "when the skinner does their schtick" because what you're basically doing is denying the splat its uniqueness.
You don't need to be super hot, really, to grab someone's attention and hold it; I can do it and I'm just a regular guy with kind of a spare tire. You can do it with words or music, posters, dancing, a smell, a calculated gesture, or even simply eye contact. It's easy if you know even a little about the people you're working with.
It's only that skinners are the only people in Apocalypse World who still understand this simple human principle, and even for them it's degraded into stripping. That's what's cool about the skinner; they have this veneer of art and grace but deep down, they are working on the most basic of human needs.
If you make it all about art and culture you're losing the grit.
And you miss out on the SEXO.
Plus how the hell are you gonna be an old man in Apocalypse World? I think everyone in our game was 14, tops.
-
Truth be told, I think that move is just Vincent's way of getting us to play ninja strippers -- because gamers are usually so reluctant to play that character type.
-
Yeah it's like the Battlebabe's 'get naked and get armour' move. It's a way of throwing some sexiness in there. I hearby pronounce that making playing a violin arresting is HERESY.
-
Also, and sorry for the necromancy, I'd like to point out that it's not a move where you can just indefinitely hold someone. You've gotta remove a piece of clothing. Then what? You've held everyone's attention for a moment or three, but when the moment is over, a bunch of ugly motherfuckers with pipes and pistols and arms like tree trunks are staring at you hungrily. Sure, you can keep removing clothing, but once you take your skivvies off you're pretty well fucked if your friends haven't made use of the time you've given them.
And for the Gunlugger example, I'm pretty sure I would count that as a huge distraction. The Gunlugger may be as horny as the next guy, but down to his core he's a Gunlugger. His guns are his life. I'd let the Skinner and his partner put the Gunlugger at a (significant) disadvantage, but getting more than a gun or two away from him before he snaps his attention away isn't something I'd allow. Or maybe I would!
"Mar, you just gonna stand there?"
"Fuck yeah, dude, it's like, magic. She's a magic fuckin' stripper. I'm sold."
"Alright dude."
Make your moves as the MC. If the Skinner is just gonna stand there stripping for all to see, have more people show up. And then more people. Dozens of people stop what they're doing and go nuts when a) the Skinner stops short or b) hits the naked zone and tries to get dressed and bug out.
Give them what they want, but put your bloody fingerprints on it. You wanted attention? You got it!
-
Make your moves as the MC. If the Skinner is just gonna stand there stripping for all to see, have more people show up. And then more people. Dozens of people stop what they're doing and go nuts when a) the Skinner stops short or b) hits the naked zone and tries to get dressed and bug out.
The solution to this problem, as the Skinner, is simple: go full bore stripper ninja! Arm her with knives or a sword, and take, as your out of playbook moves, Impossible Reflexes from the Battlebabe book and Devil with a Blade from the Maestro D' playbook. So yeah, now you're naked and you've got a bunch of worked up people who want you somethin' fierce, but you've got 2-armor and with your sword you're gonna seize their fuckin' family jewels by force rolling +3. Bring it!
-
Heh, at that point I'd let the player get away with the stripper ninja thing entirely. They've obviously earned it!
-
I find it deeply humiliating to admit that this happened recently in one of my games.
-
What? Humiliating? It's totally badass! hell, i'm planning to do at least half that much with my skinner character in the PbP game I just started.
-
When I read the move, I immediately pictured a smoky and dangerous bar where the skinner goes to work to allow another PC to steal the thing, or sneak through to the back room. A relaxed situation where it's possible to gain and hold the viewers' attention without them feeling threatened.
The way the ability is written I feel it's too open to gamey abuse. Where it says '...can do nothing but watch..' I'd add in 'provided they don't feel their lives, property or welfare are under threat.'
The way it's written, someone on fire will stand and watch a skinner take their gloves off.
-
When I read the move, I immediately pictured a smoky and dangerous bar where the skinner goes to work to allow another PC to steal the thing, or sneak through to the back room. A relaxed situation where it's possible to gain and hold the viewers' attention without them feeling threatened.
The way the ability is written I feel it's too open to gamey abuse. Where it says '...can do nothing but watch..' I'd add in 'provided they don't feel their lives, property or welfare are under threat.'
The way it's written, someone on fire will stand and watch a skinner take their gloves off.
Maybe Skinner should be SO BEAUTYFULL, that someone on fire will stand and watch...? ;)
Once more to the "NINJA WAY" ;)..:
What about the move "Artful & gracious" with SWORDMASTERY? I mean, can it be used to attack people like in the Asian movies - all with the outcome "has to give a gift" meaning hold over (any) weapon (any) enemy got before the move? Even NOT TO really HARM anyone - just to GO THROUGH them... See some kung-fu movie, where the hero goues through enemies, taking their weapons - and after that all are ALIVE (and even not hurted)... It is more SKINNER move then Battlebabe (or even Gunlugger), not?!
-
Once more to the "NINJA WAY" ;)..:
What about the move "Artful & gracious" with SWORDMASTERY? I mean, can it be used to attack people like in the Asian movies - all with the outcome "has to give a gift" meaning hold over (any) weapon (any) enemy got before the move? Even NOT TO really HARM anyone - just to GO THROUGH them... See some kung-fu movie, where the hero goues through enemies, taking their weapons - and after that all are ALIVE (and even not hurted)... It is more SKINNER move then Battlebabe (or even Gunlugger), not?!
No.
If the skinner was "blade dancing" in a fight, they would have to fight normally. Hard rolls and lethal (this is assuming COMBAT). If... say, they won without nary a scratch and a bunch of people were watching the fight take place, it could be argued that the skinner could roll an artful and gracious after the fact targeting the audience.
-
Or even during the fact, it just doesn't mean that they can use it to win the fight.
-
I felt that this fight scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgGVZC1ovgQ) from Marco Polo showed a very good example of the combo of An Arresting Skinner + Impossible Reflexes.
(Not worksafe, in case the combination of those two moves isn't enough of a hint)
-
I love the idea that this can be used without hotness.
"That unkempt old man is not really going to take of his disgusting socks in our clean house? I can't believe it, he's doing it! It's so horrible I can't look away!"
Never thought of taking this move from another playbook, but now I'm intrigued.
-
One of my players was playing a Driver that multiclassed an arresting skinner so that he could take off his suit jacket, gloves, and sunglasses before the brawls took place. Gave him a couple seconds of monologue or intimidation to preface the violence--and provided him a way to keep those clean and in-tact in a ruined world. He made it Cool
-
Lukas, that clip NAILS an arresting Skinner. Spot on chap.