Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: tehnai on June 14, 2012, 03:23:10 PM
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The druid playtest just appeared on Kickstarter. What do you guys think?
I've never been much of a druid kind of guy. I voted barbarian. But I have to say, I'm pretty impressed. It's not what I expected (a spell list and such) but by the gods, I would play that druid and play it hard.
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Glad to hear it!
One point of clarification from some early comments: the moves the GM tells you when you take a new form are *monster* moves, i.e. just plain descriptions of what the monster does. So here's what that might look like:
"You're a deer now? Well, they're flighty, so one of your moves is "Escape on hoof." They're also tough to sneak up on, so you can "Take away the element of surprise" too."
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That's an important clarification! A list of sample animals would have been nice.
Also, I am a tiny bit disappointed that there are no spells for the druid. I think he is balanced, but the druid was always about spell-casting and shapeshifting for me. Still, looks interestingly enough.
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Holy crap.
I'm at work. I was giddy when I saw it. First off: halfling druid picture is the cat's pajamas. But as I read the giddy left: All that I was left with was a deep appreciation for what was done. There are so many stories hidden inside those moves, so much flavor and depth. I've been joking about wanting one for months, and this was so worth the wait, and so worth the pick.
It hits all the points and nuances of what I want. Shapeshifter, shaman, land guardian, spirit talker, guide ... swamp thing. There are so many routes to take this. It feels very right.
I have some minor suggestions/questions which will happen post-work, but damn guys. Good work.
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My first reaction reading was to ask : Moves like what? I figure a small list of examples would be nice, if only as inspiration.
I took a few steps back figured it out with the great power of logic pretty quickly afterwards ("Oh, well, if you were a python, you would get, say, "Constrict a food item" and "Poison a food item"), but I still think a 2-3 examples available on hand would be a good thing (obvious animals coming to mind are a bear, a large snake and an eagle)
I'm gathering some people for a game on Saturday, I'll try to put some pressure on the people there to play the druid. Might also force-level the crew to third level, just to see what happens.
I don't regret the loss of spells. Makes the druid more unique, in my opinion.
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@Murder-of-crows: Take the ranger move for spellcasting. You can be a raw shapeshifter, or you can be a divine-casty-druid.
@tehnai: I expect there to be a section like that in the 'class moves discussion'
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We already have some sample moves, but no space for them on the current sheet. I'm working on a way to fit them in!
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Oh Sage, you guys think of everything!
/kissass_fanboyism
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@Murder-of-crows: Take the ranger move for spellcasting. You can be a raw shapeshifter, or you can be a divine-casty-druid.
AAAH this made the druid my to-go class the first time I get the chance to play, well, as a player.
That said:
• Elemental Mastery seems too punishing to me—I would like more something like: on a 10+ you have full success; on a 7-9, decide: either you are harmed or you lose control.
• Thing-Talker: I shapeshift in a sword, can I swing to my opponents or I'm just an inanimated sword?
• I LOVE Sky-Bender and the Tell you must have in all your shapes.
edit
however, I tried to post this three times, but every time someone added a post, I read it, then tried to post, but someone else replied, and so on.
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I just noticed the same thing about Elemental Mastery. Blame Adam, he wrote that one. Should probably be 10+ all three, 7-9 choose two.
Thing-Talker: My first instinct is no, but I should think on it.
The Tell was Adam's idea. So I guess that makes up for Elemental Mastery. I love it too.
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• Elemental Mastery seems too punishing to me—I would like more something like: on a 10+ you have full success; on a 7-9, decide: either you are harmed or you lose control.
Rereading it, I think I agree with that.
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As for spellcasting: we pretty deliberately didn't want to make a whole new spell list and spellcasting move and all that. Having spellcasting plus shapeshifting off the bat was too much, so we decided to err on the side of shapeshifting and make spellcasting kind of a special option. I think it'll work pretty well, but we'll see.
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Elemental Mastery isn't a mistake. I wrote it to be unpredictable and dangerous. Try it out in play - if I'm crazy out-of-touch, let me know.
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@(not that) adam: You really have to look at it *with* the ranger sheet (Think Ranger beast companion + the eyes of the beast trick) to see the whole other layer of awesome hiding.
Like I said I went from "huzzah I get to romp and stomp and fly around" and just sat there with all the possibilities and how much difference you can eke out from different combos. I love it.
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Can you cast spells (if you have access to them) while in animal form? I'm just curious.
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The problem that I see is a 10+ isn't really a full success: either you get hurt or lose control.
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Also, "druid magic" has always just been a boring element of their character - they're either crippled clerics or shitty mages. We decided that "transformation" is the watchword of the Druid.
Also, if you shapeshift into a sword, you're just a sword. You can't fly around or anything - but then, a sword isn't a "inanimate, natural object" is it? The Thing-Talker move is meant to allow stone or tree-forms. Shambling mounds of weeds and thorns. That sort of thing. Combine it with Chimera and you're a stone lion or a crystal dinosaur.
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The problem that I see is a 10+ isn't really a full success: either you get hurt or lose control.
On a 10+ you can choose "I get what I want and I am unharmed" and you still have the task performed to your specifications but when it's done, you don't banish the forces you've called up. It's much more tense if there's no easy out.
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Can you cast spells (if you have access to them) while in animal form? I'm just curious.
Depends on the fictional circumstances, yeah? So the Cast a Spell you'll likely get, the Cleric one (through the Ranger's God Amidst the Wastes) says "when you unleash a spell [...]" so if you can find a way to unleash a spell while in animal form, sure! I think this will come down to GM/player discussion. The cleric I played cast spells with holy words, so if that's your style then you probably can't (except maybe as a parrot?). If you cast spells with careful movements it probably depends on the shape. A monkey probably can make the same movements, but a snake?
In some circumstances I could even see "Cast a spell" being one of the monster moves the GM gives you.
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Can you cast spells (if you have access to them) while in animal form? I'm just curious.
Depends on how you cast spells to begin with - material components and hand-waving? Probably not. Can a cat pray to a god?
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I read Elemental Mastery as "the Land is thirsty". As in you have to open a vein and let the elemental drink in order to bind it. And if you don't, it might do what you want, but it might do it's own interpretation...
Also:
Can a cat pray to a god?
Bast certainly believes so. As does Morpheus... >_>
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I read Elemental Mastery as "the Land is thirsty". As in you have to open a vein and let the elemental drink in order to bind it. And if you don't, it might do what you want, but it might do it's own interpretation...
That's absolutely one way you could take it. You call up a horrible conflagration to burn your foes, but you want to send it away when you're done, so you give it your blood and take some damage (or sacrifice something valuable or some other method of harm) and you can send it back to the elemental mess it came from. If you can't pay the price, the leash comes off...
Again, it was written with that intent. Don't house-rule it until you've tried it as-is!
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The problem that I see is a 10+ isn't really a full success: either you get hurt or lose control.
On a 10+ you can choose "I get what I want and I am unharmed" and you still have the task performed to your specifications but when it's done, you don't banish the forces you've called up. It's much more tense if there's no easy out.
Yes, but it's also breaking the rules. If that's the way the move is meant to be we should change it. Having three options and only letting you choose two makes a 10+ feel like a partial success. If the best you can do is some unintended consequences then this is probably the way to do it:
When you call on the elemental forces roll+WIS. On a 10+ they do as you command until they finish the task or a few minutes passes. On a 7-9 they do as you command, but you are swept up in the elemental power and are damaged or endangered in some way, the GM will describe it. No matter the result the elemental powers are ultimately wild: the GM will add an unintended consequence.
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Yes, but it's also breaking the rules.
We'll see. I'll take another look at it. Let's take this discussion to the working doc.
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I know this isn't a democracy, but I'd like to weigh in. I think the Elemental Mastery move is excellent as is. I get that you shouldn't be able to roll a 10+ and not have a full success. But the only way that I see that happening is if you choose the last two options on the list. Any pair of the three that includes the first one means you hit it, but there's a cost.
But lots of moves have a cost even if they're not so obviously baked into the move. Even stuff like going aggro in AW almost(?) always means that you're spending social capital.
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You're right, Christopher. It's just important that any cost gets baked clearly into the move. Giving you two of three options will always feel like a failure.
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Hi!
Just to see if I understood the Elemental Mastery move right: if I'm the druid and the party is closed in a long distance arrow-fight with a horde of goblins inside a huge underground cave, I could call the spirits of the earth to shake the cave and make it crumble onto the goblins, thus ending the fight with just that move, right?
If that's the case, I like the that you can only have choose two of the three options, it makes the move powerful, but with consequences. I agree that they should probably be baked inside the move in some way, but that's just a wording-thing.
Then, a little clarification on the Shapeshifting move: how would a pc use a monster (animal, in this case) move? Basically, the monster moves are there to use when a pc fails a roll, so they can just be a description of what happens, but a pc should always roll anyway? It shouldn't be allowed to "rend an enemy apart" (monster move invented on the spot) without rolling, right? If that's the case, how would a pc use "rend an enemy apart"?
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What about a generic move like defy danger where you plug in the monater move, determine the most appeoprate stat, and then roll. 10+, you pull it off. On a 7-9, you pull it off but you lose yourself in the form and you must make another of the monster's before you find yourself.
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Also, "druid magic" has always just been a boring element of their character - they're either crippled clerics or shitty mages. We decided that "transformation" is the watchword of the Druid.
I like shapeshifting. Focuses the druid as someone different. And has a Warcraft 3 vibe.
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Hi!
Just to see if I understood the Elemental Mastery move right: if I'm the druid and the party is closed in a long distance arrow-fight with a horde of goblins inside a huge underground cave, I could call the spirits of the earth to shake the cave and make it crumble onto the goblins, thus ending the fight with just that move, right?
Yep - that's a perfect example of the Elemental Mastery move. I'm not sure if it would end the fight right then and there, but those goblins would definitely have a hurt on 'em. You might, too! The elements are dangerous to play with!
Then, a little clarification on the Shapeshifting move: how would a pc use a monster (animal, in this case) move? Basically, the monster moves are there to use when a pc fails a roll, so they can just be a description of what happens, but a pc should always roll anyway? It shouldn't be allowed to "rend an enemy apart" (monster move invented on the spot) without rolling, right? If that's the case, how would a pc use "rend an enemy apart"?
Technically, the move in this case is "Spend 1 hold to make a move" and that's the whole of it, there. The shifting is where you take a risk, the hold is your payoff currency. It'd be unfair to make a player pay twice. If one of your moves as an animal is "rend a foe apart" well, that's what you do. You already took a risk to earn that Hold and you only get 3!
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Right, I forgot about the holds while writing, and remembered just after clicking on "Post"! Sounds fair to me.
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To anyone keeping score, Carouse is another move in which you don't quite get everything, even on a 10+
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I loved the druid as a spellcaster °L° maybe I see her more AD&D-style, as a sort of variation of the cleric, than on the D&D 3.x style, where the druid was basically all about shapeshifting—I mean, Druid-Zilla anyone?
What I never could stand was the animal companion. I'm so glad that is relegated to the ranger! :D
About elemental mastery: to me the thing is, if you win with 10+, you could chose that you're unharmed and keep the thing under control, but it doesn't bend to your will. That's lame! I want action! I liked Sage's edited version more: on a 10+ the element does as you wish; on a 7-9 it does it, but it harms you; and no matter the result, now it's out of control!
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Should World-Talker require Thing-Talker? Given the amount of linked Moves for the Druid, this one would seem to make sense as well, especially since they're thematically linked it seems, with the former being the more "pure" or "refined" expression of the latter.
As for Elemental Mastery, I agree that it seems a little odd to have a move that seems only a partial success on a 10+. However, I have a question about the way one of the options for success is worded.
You retain control
Given that the other two options effectively get what you want done and prevent any backlash against you from an angry elemental spirit, this option seems to convey that you continue to control the elemental beyond the initial use of the Move, and can subsequently command other tasks later.
I'm not really seeing the summoning of an elemental so much as elemental forces being coerced into compliance, much more in the theme of L5R. Though I could definitely see a further advanced option (lvls 6-10) where an elemental spirit is summoned to fight or serve the druid. It makes me wonder though what exactly people see "retaining control" as meaning.
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I love the sky-bender move but it feels lifted from Last Airbender. Perhaps 'Fore Caster'.
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This isn't a big deal by any means, but I'm not a fan of the description under "Human". By saying "Your people have bound up their fate with the animals of farm and field" and granting the Druid an ability to shapeshift into any domesticated animal, it links the druid to civilization, which seems incredibly assumptive about the kind of background a player would want, and also works against the druid concept -- an agent/servant of the wild, not the civilized world.
I would expect druidic orders to exist in spite of the growing civilization surrounding them; and increasingly at odds with that civilization as it encroaches deeper into the wilds and tames those wilds to suit its own "advanced" needs.
Does that make sense?
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This isn't a big deal by any means, but I'm not a fan of the description under "Human". By saying "Your people have bound up their fate with the animals of farm and field" and granting the Druid an ability to shapeshift into any domesticated animal, it links the druid to civilization, which seems incredibly assumptive about the kind of background a player would want, and also works against the druid concept -- an agent/servant of the wild, not the civilized world.
I would expect druidic orders to exist in spite of the growing civilization surrounding them; and increasingly at odds with that civilization as it encroaches deeper into the wilds and tames those wilds to suit its own "advanced" needs.
Does that make sense?
For the race moves, they speak less about the here-and-now and more about stuff like ancestral memory and the power of blood passed down. Men have learned to bend animals to their will - it's part of their spirit. An individual druid, or maybe even all human druids, might reject that consciously but in their blood, the bonds are still there. Dogs, Cats, Rats, Ravens - they're part of human life and have been since as long as men in Dungeon World can remember.
That said, a human druid can always say "fuck that noise" and be wild and tear down the civilization his folk are known for. Tension between what we are and what we were born to be is a really good source of drama in play.
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Should World-Talker require Thing-Talker?
Yep. Probably.
Given that the other two options effectively get what you want done and prevent any backlash against you from an angry elemental spirit, this option seems to convey that you continue to control the elemental beyond the initial use of the Move, and can subsequently command other tasks later.
I'm not really seeing the summoning of an elemental so much as elemental forces being coerced into compliance, much more in the theme of L5R. Though I could definitely see a further advanced option (lvls 6-10) where an elemental spirit is summoned to fight or serve the druid. It makes me wonder though what exactly people see "retaining control" as meaning.
My inspiration for the move was definitely "summon but do not bind" and the "you retain control" was meant to be a little vague. It could mean you lose control of the thing after you get what you want. It could mean that you lose control of yourself to the influence of such intense power. It's intentionally open that way.
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For the race moves, they speak less about the here-and-now and more about stuff like ancestral memory and the power of blood passed down. Men have learned to bend animals to their will - it's part of their spirit. An individual druid, or maybe even all human druids, might reject that consciously but in their blood, the bonds are still there. Dogs, Cats, Rats, Ravens - they're part of human life and have been since as long as men in Dungeon World can remember.
Perhaps a re-wording?
'Your people have long ago bound the animals to field and hearth, and with it their spirits. You may always take the shape of any domesticated animal, in addition to your normal options.'
Also:
Level 1 spell: Summon dimensional shambler.
Level 10 spell: Bind dimensional shambler.
/cthulhu_highfive
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Hey @(not that) adam: I made this for you based on an earlier comment: http://goo.gl/uGFyv (http://goo.gl/uGFyv)
(Didn't have much time to polish, word carefully or trim, but the idea is there)
I'll tinker with it this weekend for funsies. (There might also be some original home-brewed goodness)
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Wow, I get home from work and find this delightful artefact! I LOVE this playbook (and yup, I voted for it)! My daydreaming sees a ranger taking druid moves with multiclass dabbler and creating a rather unique 'outdoorsy' character. So awesome.
Ill have a good read and try and playtest with my brother next week :)
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Disclaimer: I haven't playtested Dungeon World at all, much less with the Druid.
That said, three things struck me on reading it.
1) I like the focus on Shapeshifting as the core shtick of the Druid. They clearly needed something (and something different from 'nature-seeming spells', IMHO), and Shapeshifting is as fine a choice as any. The speak with animals and eventually natural stuff is good and feels like an extension of it. Yay.
2) Like one other previous poster, I'm not a big fan of the Human 'domesticated animal' thing. Seems trite, not terribly useful in many dungeons (certainly old-school ones), and kind of blah. I'd love to find something more flavorful for humans, but don't have a good suggestion to hand.
3) I don't like the 'Sustained by nature' bit coming as a mandatory move for the druid. Although I like it as an option to buy, it doesn't seem as intricately linked with the core shtick as the others.
OK, fourth thing: You need to add 'The Trackless Mire' or something similar as a possible terrain. Swamps and bogs are a staple of fantasy and Druids should be able to be at home in them. I would also call 'Arctic Circle' something more fantasy-sounding like, say, 'Frozen Wastes'.
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I'm kind of surprised people don't like the Human move! It's one of my favorites for a few reasons:
First off, I think it's super useful, especially in dungeons. Tracking hounds. Hunting hawks. Guard dogs. A stealthy housecat. And you never have to buy a horse, of course.
Then there's the possibilities for exploring the setting. There's plenty of possibilities for small shifts in what's domesticated. Like the player says "I shift into a messenger crow!" And the GM responds with: "Is that a domesticated animal?" "Oh yeah, totally, they're the way word gets sent from city to city. Much faster then a horse and crows are more reliable than hawks and less likely to get attacked than a sparrow."
Lastly, it shifts the Druid just a bit to each race. Elven druids are the classic wood elf thing. Halflings have a more nurturing bond to the land. Humans are the druids that shift the concept just a bit. I hesitate to say "urban druid" because that's only one way to do it, but its certainly a possibility.
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I like it! :)
Actually, it's a little weird. I like the druid, just all around, better than any of your base classes.
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OK, fourth thing: You need to add 'The Trackless Mire' or something similar as a possible terrain. Swamps and bogs are a staple of fantasy and Druids should be able to be at home in them. I would also call 'Arctic Circle' something more fantasy-sounding like, say, 'Frozen Wastes'.
Yes and yes. The list now contains;
- the Stinking Mire
- the Frozen North
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I can't wait to see how the druid from the Frozen North fares when she finds herself in the Frozen South!
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We like the Druid too! Originally we had intended it to be just a PDF supplement, since we were nervous about putting something so new into the book, but pending some more good playtests I think it's going in right between Cleric and Fighter.
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Please do! And thank you!
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I agree the Druid should go in the book. This is a strong class concept and would bring a real difference to a party. It's not quite "the nail that stands up defining the space" like the Battlebabe, but it is close.
(And I pushed hard for the Barbarian!)
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I just came back home from a game where a player had the druid and it was AWESOME!!!
Erran, good and human, his land is The Arctic Circle. At one point he changed into a polar bear just to strike fear into his opponents. I gave him two moves in polar bear form:
• tear someone apart
• camouflage in the snow
He was particularly happy about the last one since the story started during winter :)
He loved the human racial move and with it he changed into a homing pidgeon (again two moves from me: fly as fast as the wind; see where the human eye could never reach) to fly and bring in a secure place the most important page of an ancient tome containing a ritual able to cause the end of the world, preventing the use of said ritual by the bad guys.
And I had the most painful headache of all the time, I was a shitty GM especially in asking questions—still we had such a good time. Next week we'll continue this game.
edit:
also, when they undertook a perilous journey he actually hoped the quartermaster rolled a miss just to show off how he didn't need to eat and consume a ration. The quartemaster rolled a miss. She beat him hard. She's his girlfriend, you know.
edit2:
did I mention his druid is a giant blonde viking with 8 in strenght and 15 in charisma because he does not believe in violence?
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To anyone keeping score, Carouse is another move in which you don't quite get everything, even on a 10+
Fighter's Bend Bars, Lift Gates, too. It's not a glaring unique exception to any rule. I think it's awesome as written.
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I just came back home from a game where a player had the druid and it was AWESOME!!!
This is beautiful. I love it. Especially the animal moves - executed perfectly.
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Yeah, fantastic (not that) Adam! Thanks for sharing :)
I love the moves you created, easy enough to do?
They seemed to work well in play!
I agree, a nice balance between cleric, ranger and fighter. The rulebook would be empty without her.
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I played a Druid last night and it was very fun. I was a young neutral elf from the Emerald Island named Spring. He was given a vision by a Druid of the Green Circle about a great unnatural evil that was plauging the land and told to find the three others who were destined to help vanquish this evil. I met up with a bard, ranger and fighter.
I like the druid moves as they really evoke a child of nature. My Tell was my wise green eyes, and they actually helped me out when I shifted into an eel to fight an evil lamprey that was attacking us because without them the fighter would have had to Defy Danger to know which one was his enemy. I used Studied Essence to study someone and reveal that they were not natural (not the way the move is supposed to work but it was for flavor), I used Spirtit Tongue to find out why some evil lampreys were attacking us, I healed the bard with my Poultices and Herbs, I shifted into a jaguar to pounce on an ogre, shited into an eagle to try to snatch the scythe out of an undead monster's hand, and shifted into a large toad to jump to saftey and use my long toungue to rescue an ally! I really got a lot of use from that one move. And the GM gave me some cool moves for the animals I chose.
Combat was a bit tough with just a spear, 1 armor, 1d6 damage and 19 hp's, especially after I lost my spear to a 7-9 Defy Danger (hard bargain). He has a decent DEX so I figured he could get a bow and be a bit of a ranged attacker and then just shift into an appropriate animal when the time comes. I'll have to have a few more fights to see how it goes.
My 2nd level move will be to take Hunter's Brother to get a move from the Ranger's class list. I will choose God Amidst the Wastes to be able to cast Cleric spells. I think if I flavor the spells properly I can evoke a druid feel to them. Magic Weapon on my spear, Bless from the spirits of nature, Cause Fear as a fierce growl, Hold Person as entangle...
Anyway, I loved the DW druid, whiuch has always been one of my favorite clases in any rpg. Good work!
Now let's see the Barbarian, Monk, and Sorcerer! J/K!
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I used Studied Essence to study someone and reveal that they were not natural (not the way the move is supposed to work but it was for flavor),
This is really cool - I love the whole "negative feedback" aspect of using a move this way. "I attempt to study his spirit, to learn the ways of his soul." "Oh, actually, there's something dramatically wrong, here..."
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Combat was a bit tough
well that's because you went in combat hack'n'slashing. I think the druid can be utterly powerful by shapeshifting in some dangerous animal and using its moves to KO his opponents.
Python: strangling spires
Lion, Bear, Tiger: tear someone apart
Raven: carve someone's eye
Viper: poisonous bite
Giant spider: entangling web
T-Rex: devour whole
Condor: drop someone from height
Crocodile, Shark: drag someone down into the depts
and so on. You fall back to damage just when your shapeshifting isn't efficient—a wolf biting a dragon? No can do.
However, I would improve the druid's damage-enhancing move. Stepping up the damage die it's the same as saying +1 to damage. Maybe following the pattern of other classes—+1d4 to damage for the levels 2-5 move and +1d8 damage for the levels 6-10 move?
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Have you thought about doing this in your game?
Druid: "I shapeshift, into a bear."
GM: "Fantastic. You get a move. Spend your druid hold one for one to:
* Rend and Tear your pray for an extra 1d4 +messy damage.
* Turn blade and arrow from your bear-hide with +1 armor against a single attack."
What do you think?
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Yeah, that sounds cool. Plus there are a few things the druid can do to have a bit more teeth in combat. You could carry a wooden shield for +1 armor, take Barkskin for +1 more armor, take the move to up your damage to 1d8 while in animal form...and so on. But you're right...it's the cool animal moves that make the class fun.
I did have a question though. If you shift into an animal with claws like a tiger and the GM says one of your moves is to rend the flesh of your enemy, then would you need to make a Hack n Slash to damage it or just use your Hold from the Shapeshifting move to just do the move and apply your damage? The way the move is written, it seems to me that you spend the hold and just make the move, no Hack n Slash roll needed.
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Yup, you just spend the hold, that's the intention. Of course the fiction governs here: it's gotta be something that a bear could reasonably rend if you're a bear. No bears rending dragons most likely.
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more over, I understood that the moves you get from shapeshifting have nothing to do with dealing damage. Is this right?
I mean, the bear tears apart a goblin. It's not about damage. The player spends 1 hold, and the goblin is teared apart. End of the story.
also, you should write in the Land Before Time as an option to allow druids to shapeshift into dinosaurs. I'm serious.
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also, you should write in the Land Before Time as an option to allow druids to shapeshift into dinosaurs. I'm serious.
I'd probably just work dinosaurs into the fiction for the desert. It isn't that hard to believe, I think Dark Sun had clawhook raptor thingies as mounts. And Desert needs more support. We have Coyote, Owl, Spider, Snake and Camel. Some frogs, some lizards, but if you don't write fresh stuff into the fiction, that's pretty much it.
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uhm that's your setting. In mine, all dinosaurs live in a secret magical tropical jungle at the north pole, populated also by primitive men. Just like in the marvel universe :D
In another setting of mine I think they actually live in their appropriate individual habitat—they just never got extincted. But we still have to explore this thing.
Also, I assume you're talking about a saharan desert, right? Well there you have also scorpion, vulture, fox, gazelle, crocodile, cheetah and a mouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara#Flora_and_fauna)!
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There's also at least one type of feline that lives in deserts (though no big cats), and some others that skirt the edges. And there are a number of different animals that will migrate through various parts of deserts, and other regions, to reach their destinations or to complete their travels.
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Quick question: If a Druid takes the Hunter's Brother advancement and wants an animal companion, do they get both Animal Companion and Command from the Ranger moves, the way that you get Commune and Cast a Spell if you use a multi-class move to take cleric spells? Command and Animal Companion seem to require each other.
I've been playing DW with my kids (11, 9, and 7). My 9-year-old daughter is currently playing a Ranger and really wants to switch her character to a Druid but she wants to keep her animal companion (a tiger named "Orange").
-John B.
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It seems the answer is (http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=2772.msg16591#msg16591): no, but if the fiction is cool, then yes.
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It seems the answer is (http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=2772.msg16591#msg16591): no, but if the fiction is cool, then yes.
Thanks, I had missed that thread. That makes sense and I wouldn't give both Moves in my regular game with my friends, but with my 9-year-old daughter I think I'll give her both.
-John B.
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uhm that's your setting.
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Nah, we haven't even mentioned dinosaurs. I'm just making a suggestion. I'm not saying it's mandatory, just that it makes a lot of sense and would probably get less protest than, say, Open Ocean (you heard me Plesiosaur, you unnatural abomination!). Sorry if I was misleading.
Also, I assume you're talking about a saharan desert, right? Well there you have also scorpion, vulture, fox, gazelle, crocodile, cheetah and a mouse
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara#Flora_and_fauna)!
How on earth did I forget scorpions? They're, like, the desert animal! Good catch. I was talking about how awesome a vulture's moves could be earlier, but I honestly had no idea cheetas were a desert animal. That's something I'll use to my advantage later, somehow. I'm so in love with the concept of desert druids. Never would have even thought about it if the whole 'Lands' thing wasn't an integral part of the Druid setup.
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I'm really looking forward to GMing this, but I am still trying to figure out how to handle some of the stuff unique to Dungeon World, and I think Shapeshifter covers some of the elements I am stumbling on.
Let's say the Druid has Thing-Talker and Chimera at level 6 and turns into a stone blue whale/scorpion. On one hand, turning into a Godzilla monster is pretty apocalyptic for something a player can do over and over again. On the other, from a mechanical standpoint I could make their moves be "destroy a landmark" or "assault a city" so they have to use their holds to do the really interesting stuff, and on the fiction side of things, I imagine dangerous people would sit up and take notice if a scorpion the size of a house starting crushing the gentry. On top of it all, I could warn the player that failing such a drastic transformation could have dire consequences.
Am I approaching this the right way?
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Just GMed a game with a druid involved. The player was a newer gamer, still working on getting out of his shell and finding his creativity, but we had some pretty awesome scenes.
He was a halfling druid of the River Delta (halflings were a race of barbaric nomads), he absorbed a bear at some point too. Amongst the highlighs of the game were him falling from a castle wall as an Elk, and turning into a bobcat in midair to land safely (shame he failed!)
Also saw him as duck, an alligator and an anaconda (with which he tripped a stone golem using the moves "Constrict anything" and "Coming out of freaking nowhere")
My only comment on the druid would be his low damage. I felt like he was doing all of these cool things in combat but it didn't do much, and given the fact that the druid, at least at level one, seems, at first look, to be a fighty class, I feel like the class should get a D8 of damage. I know this can be achieved by levelling, but still, his damage felt extremely minor for most of the session.
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@ZonerZ: Cheetas aren't really desert animals. They're native to very dry areas like savannahs and grassy plains, but not really deserts. Large animals don't tend to do very well in deserts unless they have specific evolutionary adaptations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_animals) for the heat and minimal water sources, like camels. The sand cat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_cat) is more in line with what I was talking about, or any number of other variations on small felines that have become specifically adapted to desert life.
@rubiconium: That does sound pretty awesome, but they've also invested two levels worth of advancement choices into doing exactly that. Ultimately, I think it all comes down to the fiction. A giant blue whale or scorpion is only going to be useful for so many things, and it's definitely going to attract attention. Plus they'll have had to attune themselves to a giant scorpion. If they can pull that off through fiction, I'd be willing to let them have it. They'll have earned it.
@tehnai: I see the druid as more of a versatile class, adapting to whatever the circumstance is and to what the player wants it to be. The ability to shapeshift into any number of things means that they should always have a tool right for the job if they think things through and follow the fiction. Don't have a fighter and need to open a barred door? Great, let me shift into a rhino. And on, and on. They may not do tons of damage at first, but I think their versatility makes up for it. Options are something they should never have a lack of, and being creative should with shapeshifting should make them a powerful class, regardless of their damage.
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@samuraiko
Thanks for the advice! I've pretty much only ever played 4e, and I spent some time looking over Old School Revival Stuff, so I'm still getting used to a more free-form play-style. One thing I wasn't clear on in my first post, though—I'm pretty sure as long as a Druid has a whale shape and Chimera, they can turn into a giant monster by grafting on other animal bits. So the creature in question was actually a blue whale with scorpion body parts.
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Right. I believe the text says up to three, or something to that effect. I'm not sure what I think about allowing animal parts to grow or shrink as they're added, maybe it's something for the roll to shape-shift to decide. Anyone else have thoughts on that?
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Hey, if I end up playing rather than GMing at the Canberra Gang's Release Party, I'm going to push for the Druid, my homeland is going to dry schlerophyll forest and I'm going to author shapeshift into Kangaroos, Echidnas, Platypus, Numbats... All the marsupial goodness!
I like the dinosaur concept by the way :)
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If I just backed the kick-starter, how would I go about getting access to the Druid playbook for play-testing?
I've been playing with my kids (ages 12 and 9), and the 12 year old has express interest in playing a Druid, so I'd love to get my hands on it.
Thanks.
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If I just backed the kick-starter, how would I go about getting access to the Druid playbook for play-testing?
I've been playing with my kids (ages 12 and 9), and the 12 year old has express interest in playing a Druid, so I'd love to get my hands on it.
Thanks.
Backers can access the Druid playtest docs here;
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sage-kobold/dungeon-world-a-game-with-modern-rules-and-old-sch-0/posts/247061
(Make sure you're logged in!)
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sweet. Thank you. I'll make sure to post playtest feedback to the forums here.
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I'm playing a 3rd level elf druid from the Emerald Isles and am looking to take Thing-Talker as my next move. I already have Elemental Mastery. What sort of cool inanimate natural things can you guys think of? I know it would work for plants, trees and rocks...but what are a few other interesting uses for this move? Does anyone have any other suggestions for a cool druid move instead of this one?Thanks.
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I'm playing a 3rd level elf druid from the Emerald Isles and am looking to take Thing-Talker as my next move. I already have Elemental Mastery. What sort of cool inanimate natural things can you guys think of? I know it would work for plants, trees and rocks...but what are a few other interesting uses for this move? Does anyone have any other suggestions for a cool druid move instead of this one?Thanks.
Ocean foam, sea salt, sand, palms, lava rock, coral, banks of heavy fog. I was actually just in Hawaii for a few weeks and it was very inspiring for these sorts of things. I'd suggest doing a google image search for Polynesian islands or hang out on wikipedia.
It'll be up to you and your GM to work together to draw the boundaries between Thing-Talker and World-Talker - generally, Thing-Talker will still be heavily flavoured by the Land. You're seeing things like pine trees and cacti and really specific elements like arctic ice or swirling desert sand vs. pure and unbridled elemental forms.
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Flotsam and Jetsom
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Thanks for the replies guys...I've got plentyof inspiration now. But, I was aslo wondering what are some uses for the move. I know you can use the move to talk to those kinds of things and turn into them but what would be some practical uses? What can you actually do once you are in that form? I'm trying to think of something clever and fun to do in game. I know it will all depend on the fiction, but any ideas on how to use the move for something a little different? In combat, in particular, what would be a good use of that move?
I was actually thinking of taking the move to cast cleric spells and reflavor them to be more like druid spells. I can think of plenty uses for these in a game but we already have a cleric in the game and I dont want to step on his toes, though he said he was cool with it. The Thing-Talker move is very cool and flavorful but I'm not sure how much mileage I'll get out of it in our game.
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The most obvious uses are turning your hands into sharp coral or your skin into hardwood, giving you moves like "leave a horrible bleeding wound" (anyone who has ever cut themselves on coral will know how bad it sucks) or "deflect an attack". The GM is the one that ultimately gives you the moves, but it's the GMs job to ask questions, right? So your GM will see what you think, too.
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The Shapeshifter move specifies taking on a perfect copy of something's form. I think maybe it might need rewording if it's also supposed to allow partial transformation like stone skin or coral hands.
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The Shapeshifter move specifies taking on a perfect copy of something's form. I think maybe it might need rewording if it's also supposed to allow partial transformation like stone skin or coral hands.
There may be some room for clarification, to be sure. I envisioned Thing-Talker as allowing full shapeshifting into humanoid-shaped mobile forms made out of the stuff you shapeshift into - treants, swamp shamblers and the like.
Consider this errata for the playtest version; "Thing-Talker forms can be exact copies or can be mobile, vaguely humanoid-shaped entities."
Chimera is the move that lets you mix-and-match.
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I like that! I can't wait to be swamp thing.
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Now you're talking, Skinnyghost! That's what I was trying to get at. I just couldn't think of too many useful reasons to actually become a rock or a tree or some other natural inanimate object. But with this new errata, it really opens up the possibilities. Thanks.
Another move that I took was Elemental Mastery. I've used it twice (because I'm scared I might lose control and endager innocent lives). One time I conjured a mini tornado to knock back a crazy mob of villagers that was threatening my companions. I managed to retain control but I was harmed and got thrown back by the force of the wind. The second time, I conjured a flame to light something on fire and again I rolled 7-9 and retained control but got burned. I am really dreading the 6 minus roll because I dont want to lose control some day. It makes for good tension.
But I have a suggestion. It seems that even if you roll 10+ you must pick the option that lets the effect come to pass. So on a 10+ you WILL either be hurt or lose control. I think it's a bit unfair. Maybe you can add one more option such as "you can use this move again today" so that on a hit your effect comes to pass but you still may be hurt, lose control, or not be able to use the move again. It just seems wierd that on a hit you have to actually pick that the effect happens. I think it should happen, and then you pick something esle.
Thoughts?
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This (http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=2832.msg16953#) is been already discussed about, if you are interested in reading the previous comments. I would totally agree with you if only I didn't have yet to playtest elemental mastery (the lazy and lucky druid in two sessions basically failed only 2 rolls and never resolved any bond! so he's the only one still at level 1 :| ).
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Minor thing, but regarding Balance: I think it should say "When you deal damage during battle you may choose to do -1d4 damage." Or otherwise indicate that it must be vs a foe.
Without that clause, a druid could arguably use this move while punching his willing allies. If they choose to not defend themselves, the druid just does damage (no move required). If he's unarmed, he "might do 1 stun damage." If he then chooses to do -1d4 damage, that's 0 stun damage. He then heals someone for 1d4 damage. And is the ally even stunned, since he took no damage?
Yes, this is easily prevented under the "don't be a tool" clause of your social contract. And sure, you can say "you're unarmed, so you can't deal damage." But that implies that I can't ever do damage unarmed (if I can't do it NOW, when no one's stopping me, when can I?). Frankly, I don't want to have that conversation at the table. Also, it's an easy enough fix to make.
Possibly a broader concern with the move: it's very mechanical. There's no required fictional component, just the implied fictional component of dealing less damage. Maybe make it something like:
"When you deal damage in the heat of battle and choose to pull your blow, do -1d4 damage and gain 1 balance..." Something like that; maybe come up with a more poetic or evocative phrasing than "choose to pull your blow."
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Great feedback on Balance. Thanks!
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I'm currently running a game with three players, one of whom is playing a Druid. There's been some situations where he has shape-shifted when there wasn't a fictionally obvious threat nearby and so I struggled to make a hard move that followed smoothly when he rolled a miss.
I'd just like to get a feel for what other GMs are using in similar situations, and also which of the following seem legit:
- The shifting goes wrong: you turn into another form that you know (GM decides) Put someone in a spot or Turn their move back on them
- The shifting only partly works: you retain some features of your humanoid form (usually in a way that makes one of the animal's moves narratively unavailable, or creates some other obvious weakness) Put someone in a spot
- You distance yourself from the spirits: -1 ongoing to shifting rolls until you rest (similar to the spell-casting 7-9) Use up their resources
- You lose your mental grasp on the animal's form: can no longer shift to this form until you rest (similar to the spell-casting 7-9) Use up their resources
- You're distracted in some way that messes with "you and your possessions meld into a perfect copy". You can shift, but when you shift back some item that you hold, named there and then by the GM, will have been destroyed Tell them the requirements or consequences and ask
- There's also the easiest hard move: deal damage. Perhaps the Druid injures himself in a painful American Werewolf style transformation....
I've also struggled a bit with working out appropriate moves to give out for each animal form. Examples would really help!
I was thinking that a lot of the power of the animal transformation should come from fictional positioning, and maybe the hold should just be spent ad-hoc when you do something that is only possible by virtue of being shifted. So you're a bear, awesome! Now you can completely block that doorway, or hit 5 goblins with a single Hack and Slash. You're a rat, awesome! Now you can Defy Danger to hide in shoebox, or find your bearings instantly in a sewer. Narrate something that's only possible because of your form, spend a hold. That thing then becomes a move, so write it on the "animal moves" section of your sheet for future reference and consistency.
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Tarnop, you have it all worked ou! Those ideas for a miss are all wonderful, and your thoughts on fiction first in relation to hold and the power of shapeshift are highly appropriate to the move (and all moves really).
All I can really add off the top of my head is that there is no onus on you to respond with your hard move as the very next thing you say on a miss. Ask questions first, establish why the shapeshift was important to the character or situation in the fiction and antagonise that intent.
Maybe on a miss you could say that the animal form is taking over and when spending hold the character needs to defy danger to overcome anything other than the form's instinct? The danger being that the character slips further in to the animal mindset and despite using up all of their available hold remains in animal form until someone they are bonded to brings them back...
You can always just advance a grim portent and show signs of doom too.
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Cheers noofy. I have to say, that this was something of a revelation for me:
Ask questions first, establish why the shapeshift was important to the character or situation in the fiction and antagonise that intent.
I think "find the intent in the fiction and antagonise that intent" is something that could be in the GM section of every game that uses the Apocalypse Engine. Thanks!
You can always just advance a grim portent and show signs of doom too.
This is something that I've been trying to do. However, I often find that the situations where I'm struggling to pick a hard move are the ones where the players are located somewhere where it's difficult for me to show the effects of a grim portent.
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Maybe on a miss you could say that the animal form is taking over and when spending hold the character needs to defy danger to overcome anything other than the form's instinct? The danger being that the character slips further in to the animal mindset and despite using up all of their available hold remains in animal form until someone they are bonded to brings them back...
Love this.
Other ideas that spring to mind:
- You attract the attention of supernatural forces in the area (turn move back on them; reveal unwelcome truth; introduce a new type of creature)
- You lose control, lashing out at your allies (forcing them to defend or defy danger) or running off on your own
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One of the things listed in the move is to let the beast overcome them. I've had a druid get ready to scout, miss his roll and turn into a raven only to flap off, go look for carrion, start building a nest, collect shiny things.
Or have the bear druid forget he was a person and become more of a bear.
However, my favorite is to have the land really get to them, and place a gaesa to go put something right.
* The soul of a woman wronged and killed nearby whispers through the land. You shift and her voice drowns out that of the other spirits.
* The rent in the soil beneath you where the cults meet when both moons are black offends the land.
* The swamp cries out in the south, the burning of the dragon's breath boiling it's brackish lifeblood.
You know give them a cool vision, have their dreams be nothing but this till they right it. Have them suddenly start needing sustenance. More stories from failures I say!
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I ran our first game of Dungeon World this week, and one of the players selected the Druid class.
We had some trouble adjudicating the Shapeshifter move during play.
During the session the Druid used the forms owl, bear, and raccoon. How do the "moves associated with your new form" typically work? Does the player just need to spend the hold, or is a roll in order?
For example, if a bear has the moves:
• tear someone apart
• intimidating roar
Does the player just spend hold, messily tear a bandit into bloody chunks, and cause the remainder to flee? This seems pretty powerful, and could quickly overshadow the other characters. Any sort of "auto-success" moves seem like they could dominate the story.
Some of the players also started a thread about this on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/890467/sample-druid-shapeshift-moves
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The druid just spends to do what an animal would, yes.
Keep the fiction in mind though: a bear has "tear someone apart" which means some poor human is probably dead, but something like a treant? Probably not. It'll hurt and might, say, rip of some branches that won't be there anymore to smack you, but not outright kill.
They way to look at the druid's shapeshift is that it's a bit more like saving up a success for later. Turning into a bear does give you some "free" attacks, but only as a bear would, nothing fancy like the fighter might attempt to disarm or something. Basically the druid is locking in some future successes at the cost of the animal's limitations.
By "limitations" I'm just thinking stuff like "oh crap there's a bear I'd better attack that instead of that chumb in armor" or whatever.
"Intimidating roar" is an interesting animal move. I wouldn't assume that a bear's roar would scare off a group of people—a dude or two, sure. But a big group? probably just draws their attention, which is useful, but dangerous as well.
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However, my favorite is to have the land really get to them, and place a gaesa to go put something right.
This is an awesome thread. Geas on a miss is brilliant, and so is noofy's "find the intent and antagonize it."