Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: Murder-of-Crows on June 08, 2012, 07:24:12 AM
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We've given the beta test rules V2.3 a try:
http://beyondthedrowningwoods.blogspot.de/2012/06/barrow-of-dwarven-queen.html (http://beyondthedrowningwoods.blogspot.de/2012/06/barrow-of-dwarven-queen.html)
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just a comment:
the xp-on-a-miss it's not a leftover, it's just how the game works. I never felt the leveling being too fast. I suggest to continue with the game as it is and then if you ever should think you're game is ruined because of this, change to a slower pace increasing the number of xps needed to level up.
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I understand now. I still don't like it. With an average of 4 XP per session, you'll need 27 sessions to reach level 10. That's without awarding extra XP for misses. With those extra XP the game picks up it's pace.
Personally I think 27 sessions is about right for reaching the end game. That's about half a year.
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4 XP a session implies that the players all agree they've done each of the three thematic things to trigger XP gain plus they're all acting under their alignment. We feel like that's not necessarily true of every session.
That said, and all of this being true, XP is the easiest thing in the world to hack. Want a different pace? Go for it! Want to create different triggers for XP based on your campaign world? Please do! The game works at a specific cadence as-is but hack away at the XP gain all you like - you won't break anything but pacing.
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I found the most interesting bit of things Grimdrig's commentary at the end.
WFRP3rd (which I'm a fan of) rewards positive description with white and black dice. So if you fictionally add positioning (I dance back over the trap, hoping he misses where I step!) you get white blessing dice to add, and if the GM adds complications (but you've been drinking all last night dwarf, how's that blurry vision affecting your footing?) you add black dice to complicate your life.
However being used to this sytem and being removed from it reminds me of the feedback loop (http://www.alexc.me/a-scientific-explanation-why-diablo-3-is-less-addictive-than-diablo-2/417/). Be creative, add fiction, get a bennie! Woo! But in DW: Be creative, add, fiction .... no mechanical additive. This would no doubt wear on the player.
DW is a very different game though. Instead of using a very delineated set of rules, you tell a story together and use the rules where they apply. It takes a little adjustment. Also about $60 less of unique dice, and 40lbs of cards (that box is heavy). It has strong benefits (such as more flexible class and world structure, higher player agency) but the tradeoff is that not every fictional tidbit matters. I think it does well overall because it's not as much about player success as about a good story. Also it moves alot faster in terms of getting things done, and story progression.
But I hear what he's saying.
GM SECTION:
I second the 'boxes' for marking things off comment.
Spouting lore and Discern Realities speed up. When people learn the questions they know what to ask, and they don't bother rolling so much when it isn't applicable, just ask questions about details.
Cool post.
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Personally I think 27 sessions is about right for reaching the end game. That's about half a year.
I think it's at least the third topic where comes out something like this. Level 10 it's the end of the game only if you want it to be it. Adam, Sage: you REALLY have to write something about this in the book.
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Thanks for the AP, good read.
I have noticed that XP "slows down" around 3rd-level. So it's cool for getting some forward momentum in the beginning to keep things moving and make the players excited. As mentioned, it's an easy hack. XP-on-miss is probably one of the greatest things I've ever seen in a game. Every player I've run through the game loves it. The End of Session move is also so, so important. I definitely make time for it. The only thing I'm doing now is making the 3 questions at the end open-ended rather than yes/no. You get better answers that way. This conversation at the end of the game will really tell you what they found interesting and memorable about the game. That's gold for future sessions.
For what it's worth, this is the general go-to list I use for Defy Danger weak hits:
Worse Outcome: You're out of the danger, but now in a new one.
Hard Bargain: You're out of the danger, but it costs you something, right now.
Ugly Choice: You're out of the danger, but now you have to make a choice with no particularly good options.
The key thing is that they do what they set out to do, but... Also, I've noticed that if the danger itself is not well defined and the fiction going on at the moment not detailed and engaging, weak hit results on DD will be harder to arrive at. In pinch like this, I'll turn it back on the players. Someone will have a good idea if I don't.
Discern Realities and Spout Lore. I tend to look at these as fiction generation engines more than anything else (even more so than other moves). As I don't have a plot, they create new stuff rather than reveal something I planned beforehand. If it takes me more than a couple seconds to think of something, back to the players it goes, as appropriate. Like DD, if the fiction preceding the move isn't strong, it will be hard to come up with something on the spot. Another good reason to make sure the story is detailed and explored as you go. Could you give an example where Grimdrig thought SL and DR slowed things down? Sounds like an isolated case to me.
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For what it's worth, this is the general go-to list I use for Defy Danger weak hits:
Worse Outcome: You're out of the danger, but now in a new one.
Hard Bargain: You're out of the danger, but it costs you something, right now.
Ugly Choice: You're out of the danger, but now you have to make a choice with no particularly good options.
The key thing is that they do what they set out to do, but... Also, I've noticed that if the danger itself is not well defined and the fiction going on at the moment not detailed and engaging, weak hit results on DD will be harder to arrive at. In pinch like this, I'll turn it back on the players. Someone will have a good idea if I don't.
That is an immense help. Both the description about what worse outcome, hard bargain and ugly choice can mean, as well as the comment about weak fiction.
Both should be in the book in some form.
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I mean, that's my isolated experience and what works for me. I can't speak to whether it should go into the book, but I thank you for the kind words. One thing I forgot to add is that the one that comes up the least is Ugly Choice. When it does, it's obvious and you'll see it clearly. Worse Outcome and Hard Bargain tend to be the most common results.
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Next Friday, we'll get to together for another game of Dungeon World. Maybe it will be a continuation of the previous game. I don't know yet. Only two players will continue their characters, the others dropped out of the game. There will be 1-3 new players. But the two dwarves have indicated, they'd be interested in finding out what happens next. Therefore, I am ready to roll into two directions:
1. Continue the dwarven adventure.
I've prepared a bit for that:
-Updated map (link (http://beyondthedrowningwoods.blogspot.de/2012/06/updated-map-of-skorhormulegur-and.html))
-The port town that they are travelling to (link (http://beyondthedrowningwoods.blogspot.de/2012/06/svarturvigi-black-fortress.html))
2. Start something new with all the players
I would be interested in option 1 of course, because I would like to find out what happens next. For that, we need to play.
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MoC that Steading is freaking awesome! I love the ancient vibe.
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Thanks! It mostly sprang from the name and my desire to have dwarves be something else than mountain folk.
After I finished and read the text over, somehow Harrenhal jumped into my mind... I've been watching too much Game of Thrones it seems.
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Next steading designed: Friarsbridge, a small village [link (http://beyondthedrowningwoods.blogspot.de/2012/06/friarsbridge.html)]
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Wonderful MoC. I dig how you are digging obliquely for answers. It sets up interesting triangles, not just PC-NPC-PC ones, but with factions (dangers) too.
The stakes questions you have come up with, and the impressions you have detailed would make for a great session setting the scene in Friarsbridge. All is not as it seems...
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Thanks again. Tomorrows session will start out shortly before the caravan reaches Svarturvigi. I need to introduce at least one other player character.
In the meantime, I have written a small adventure front "The Rise of the Demon Queen".
I won't publish it on my blog until my players have dealt with it (or elected to ignore it).
Next, all I need is a write-up for Solacebury and I am set for anything that could happen tomorrow.
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Yesterday's actual play report: link (http://beyondthedrowningwoods.blogspot.de/2012/06/against-spectre-queen.html).
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Great AP! One note I'd give on your feedback about Lucius being frustrated by not being able to do things like kick down doors because he doesn't have Bend Bars, Lift Gates: remember that while fiction flows from the moves, the moves also flow from the fiction.
Not having BBLG doesn't mean that somehow every bar and gate is mystically impervious to Lucius' attempts bend or lift them, it just means that he doesn't get to use that particular move to do it. Probably it's down to the GM's choice (keeping in mind your principles, of course), but maybe if it's really urgent it's a Str-based Defy Danger. On a 10+, yeah, the gate's open... but he doesn't get to pick whether it draws little attention or whether it can easily be put back or what have you. On a 7-9, sure, the gate's lifted, but... well, I'm sure you can come up with hard bargains and ugly choices for that.
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That's what he is seeing too, but still he feels restricted.
BTW, what I forgot to mention: how can I handle PCs selling stuff? Is that just a "reverse" supply move where the PC is offering an item and expecting money in return?
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That sounds like a cool way to implement selling stuff.
Why are the players wanting to sell stuff? To generate funds? If there is no agenda or you can't think of a good 7-9 complication, just say yes and get on with the good stuff. But perhaps if it feels like there is some danger in this transaction, perhaps you could identify the risk (danger) and use Defy Danger as a move?
The simplest interpretation being that the danger is they get fleeced, or perhaps someone notices them fencing for large sums of gold and picks them as a target, or perhaps someone says sure, they'll buy that junk off you (as a favour) but only if you help them with a little something something in return, or maybe word gets out that you have raided the temple of the spider god and the culties come searching.
Or maybe you just announce a grim portent? There's game in that little scenario for sure.
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Thanks for the hints, noofy.
Considering all that, the transaction was rather mundane. The dwarven fighter just wanted to sell his old and used scale mail, because he had gotten fancy plate mail. Maybe instead of rolling, I just should have given him half-price and be done with it.
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The next to last installment in the BDQ Series is online: link (http://beyondthedrowningwoods.blogspot.de/2012/07/bdq3-in-service-of-black-king.html)
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Great review. I just sell things at half price and move on. But I like the idea of doing a Defy Danger when it makes sense to avoid the cultists noticing that their temple was raided or to get a respectable deal from the shifty eyed merchant.
I struggle with the 7-9 on Defy Danger. I'll have to try the recommendations on this thread. That may help. In combat things are moving so quickly and fast (that's good) that to slow it down with DD and drum my fingers and think, what can I do, what can I do, isn't good. I'd like to see Defy Danger 7-9 have an optional rule that provides more ideas for the GM. I'll also try asking players when I'm out of ideas.
I enjoyed reading the play report. Keep it up.
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Whatever happened to my post with the link to the actual play report? Was it considered spam?
Yesterday we played the third session in the module series. This is the link to the play report: In the Service of the Black King (http://beyondthedrowningwoods.blogspot.de/2012/07/bdq3-in-service-of-black-king.html)
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Murder-of-crows, your posts today aren't appearing for me! I can see that you last posted at 7 today but I can't see that post.
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Actually I can see your post when I'm writing a reply in the topic summary.
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Murder-of-crows, your posts today aren't appearing for me! I can see that you last posted at 7 today but I can't see that post.
Already wrote skinnyghost about that. I can't see my posts either. Maybe I am considered spam...
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The spam filters have been overreacting particularly the last few days. I'll have Vx take a look for us.