Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: donbaloo on April 09, 2012, 01:38:10 PM
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I get the impression that Defy Danger will be a very frequent move in play. The GM is constantly threatening with Impending Doom (be it an Ogre's club descending upon you or a gas trap slowly filling a room) and you're responding. My question is, do you use Defy Danger when you're trying to carry out and a different action or only to avoid the danger? The ogre's club is descending, what do you do? If you're willing to, God forbid, take the blow so that you can finish the last words of the ritual, is that a Defy Danger? Or is that just a Golden Opportunity: GM deals out damage or any other hard move, but you finish the ritual. Or is attempting to finish the ritual Defying Danger, so roll the move?
Make sense?
Edit for another example: Same ogre, club arcing down. Fighter what do you? "I run my sword through his gut and steel myself for the impact!" So what did he just do? Did he just give the GM his golden opportunity by ignoring the threat while simultaneously taking the Hack and Slash move? Or does he actually need to make the Defy Danger move (to act despite a threat) before he even gets to Hack and Slash?
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I'm not the most experienced GM out there, but I'd like to take a crack at this in case someone can help me refine my thoughts:
You're Defying Danger if you ignore the threat and do something else. Defying Danger can also be avoiding calamity (on par with a saving throw). "Avoiding calamity" has some broad implications and sounds like a catch-all for a threat that springs itself on the PCs as opposed to the GM taking a soft move to set up the danger ("the ogre raises its great club high over its head and gets ready to bring it down on you").
By my understanding, if you take fictional action that "resolves" the danger (whether or not those actions result in a move themselves) - say, getting out of the way of the ogre's club (not a move) - then it's not Defying Danger because you did what followed. If you instead chose to swing your sword at him, you'd be Defying Danger to do a Hack & Slash.
I think one of the key things to remember here is that Defy Danger is not a skill check or a dodge/defense roll.
(Am I right, community?)
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Okay, cool. That's the way I read it too. Defy Danger is not avoiding danger. I guess to avoid danger you just do it and the GM decides whether it works or not if there's no move triggered.
Defy Danger is specifically for taking some action DESPITE the danger at hand. Defy the Danger and then proceed with your action.
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Okay, to continue to the examination while keeping in mind that its all about the fiction. I suppose if the Fighter says "I roll to the side and come up behind him.", and stops there waiting for you input...that's just narration and he escaped the blow. Now its back to the GM to make a move.
However, if the Fighter had responded with "I roll to the side, coming up behind and hack into his spine!", that's actually Defying Danger. He's narrated beyond just trying to escape, which triggered nothing. He's attempted to narrate himself into action, which triggers Hack and Slash. So that's acting despite a threat and deserves a Defy Danger?
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Without taking the whole scene into account, it's hard to discuss in the hypothetical; however, here's how I'd do it. The soft move threat I put out there (the ogre's club in motion) is resolved by the fiction. The fighter's rolling to the side and coming up behind him isn't Defy Danger. There's an ogre there, sure, but by this point, he's picking his great club up out of the dust and broken stone that used to be the floor and turning to face the fighter. There's no overt threat anymore - the fighter did what followed. The fighter pokes him with his sword - Hack & Slash. If he weak hits, I'll soft move again to set up another threat. If he flubs it and gives me a golden opportunity, I'll exact a toll with a hard move.
If the fighter rolls to the side and comes up behind him and says nothing else, I guess that'd be a way for you to set up another threat by way of a soft move under the auspices of "when everyone looks at you to see what happens," but I'd probably just ask another character to chime in with an action of their own and take it from there.
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Got ya. Thanks iserith.
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No problema. Though I'm hoping someone with more DW chops will jump in and confirm or correct what I said as this is something my group and I have been discussing at length.
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You know, I was just rereading Golden Opportunity and reminded myself it's applicable when a character ignores a threat. This throws some of my assumptions in doubt, I think.
What is "ignoring a threat?" In this example, the fighter didn't ignore the ogre's club - he rolled around to the back of the ogre and preps to stab him in the jacksey. So it's not a Golden Opportunity.
But was the fictional action of the fighter's tumbling despite the threat or because of it? If it's the latter, then it's not Defy Danger - the fighter did what followed in the fiction and "resolved" the threat (he's not longer in the way of the club's arc).
Let's say the fighter wants to hold his ground and Hack & Slash the ogre when the club is swinging down. Is that both a Defy Danger AND a Golden Opportunity? He's acting despite an imminent threat and ignoring it. Kind of a double-dip situation here, no?
The mind boggles.
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Damn you iserith!! You've just turned it back into my original question! And here I thought I was free and clear.
Yeah, its the Golden Opportunity of having a threat ignored thats tripping me up when I try to put it all together with Defy Danger.
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I know, right? I just iserith'ed this up good. I think I may have not fully appreciated your question earlier because I didn't remember the specific definition of "golden opportunity." Ignorance was definitely bliss, but now I'll not be able to sleep tonight.
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Same here probably. You go ahead and take first watch though in case I punk out and fall asleep anyway.
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(I wrote this post earlier today, before all the other replies. I'm going to post it, then go back and read the thread and see how it fits in :) )
I think it comes down to the fictional circumstances: is the ritual in danger of failing due to the club?
If we're talking about an ogre with a club that can knock you off your feet and the ritual requires complex movements and perfect enunciation, then yeah, sounds like Defy Danger.
If the ritual is just a few words spoken with meaning, or if the attack is something smaller, then probably not Defy Danger.
For me "defying" in this case comes down to "does the ritual still work?" If that's in question, use the move.
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From the new "moves explanation" chapter: (if i'm overstepping my bounds posting this, let me know and I'll take it down)
"You Defy Danger when you do something in the face of impending peril. That may seem like a catch-all. It is! Defy Danger is for those times when it seems like you clearly should be rolling but no other move applies.
Defy Danger also applies when you make another move despite danger not covered by that move. For example, Hack and Slash assumes that's you're trading blows in battle—you don't need to Defy Danger because of the monster you're fighting unless there's some specific danger that wouldn't be part of your normal attack.
On the other hand, if you're trying to Hack and Slash while spikes shoot from hidden traps in the walls, you're ignoring a clear and present threat and need to Defy Danger."
Basically, whenever there is danger and you narrate yourself defying it, you Defy Danger.
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I should probably update the last sentence of that to "You need to Defy Danger or suck it up and take the damage."
Basically you Defy Danger when either you don't want to be effected by the bad thing or you want to keep on doing what you're doing despite a bad thing. Both are valid uses, and both follow from the fiction.
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Okay,thanks for the hand holding everyone I think I'm cleared up now. If I'm reading you right Sage, to my original question in the heading...its both. Or can be both. And my assumption about ignoring a threat can be possible too. If we all agreed that it was possible in teh fiction to take the blow but simultaneously finish the ritual then no need for a Deny Danger roll if the wizard chooses that route (thought he's probably paste, tough sacrifice!).
If I can mine this thread a bit further I think I've actually had a breakthru moment too, thanks to the post by Aaron. As I read through the Basic and sort of thought ahead about potential hicccups, I was sort of imagining that there's a lot of stuff that could be just left up to GM fiat since no moves would be tied to it. For example, most of the thiefy stuff that you think about from D&D like sneaking up on people, hiding, climbing, etc. At first blush I thought, hmmm, I guess all that stuff is just handled narratively.
But now, thanks to Aaron's quoted passage, I think most of this stuff is probably going to fall under a Defy Danger situation right? If the thief is sneaking to get the drop on someone, there's actually danger there right? Being detected is the danger. So we roll for that. Same for climbing or even just trying to hide from something. Being spotted is the danger I guess, so we roll for that.
These were all situations that in my mind I was thinking, man, would be nice if there was a roll for that. That passage clears that up. There is a roll for it. Defy Danger. Thanks guys, this has been enormously helpful.
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Yeah, exactly! Sneaking is very likely to be Defy Danger.
The other useful thing for cases where you're not sure what move applies is to go to your GM moves. Take the guard at the barbarian chiefton's tent for example: the players want to get past him, but they don't have any leverage on him, so no Parley. You can respond with a GM move, something like "tell them the requirements:" "So, the guard looks you up and down and kind of snarls: only the pure can see the chiefton. You scum have the stink of the outside world about you."
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Defy Danger is for those times when it seems like you clearly should be rolling but no other move applies.
This doesn't sit well with how I understood things to work in DW. A roll is when there's a move and the move follows from the fiction. Why would you "clearly" have to be rolling something if a move doesn't apply? It just happens or doesn't. Is this a reaction to GM fiat as donbaloo suggests? I can live with this stipulation, but it takes Defy Danger back into the realm of being a skill check or the like (which I believed was not the intent until now).
EDIT: I'm thinking back to something sage said about the "charged" nature of a situation being baked right into the move in a forum post somewhere. DM doesn't have to decide if there is a roll or not because the move will apply or not. Doesn't this above rule also go against this notion?
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I think I need to read the whole Moves Discussion section in 2.1.
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We should expand on that for sure.
Here's the thing: if you really feel like a roll should be made it's probably because there's something dangerous and interesting going on. That's not too clear from the quoted statement, we'll revise. But the idea is: when there's something happening where you can just see how badly this could turn out, that mean's you'er seeing a danger that's being defied.
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Great discussion lads :)
My input after all has been said is a commentary on GM 'style' or behavioural response through moves. Defy Danger is the 'goto' move by the players for sure, but only after elucidated through the fiction. So the choice of soft or hard move by the GM in determining the 'danger' is all part of what Chris refers to as fiat - but its a choice by the GM based on the fiction - its the framing of the danger by the GM that matters too. Even if the GM makes a hard move, with the consequences metered without player adjudication, it is never in a 'vacuum'. Everyone is excitedly narrating at this point, moves are being made, dice are being rolled.
If the danger is threatening the players but hasn't effected them yet (the GM is setting themselves up for the hard move to follow) then the GM move is presumably soft. If however, the danger has already effected them or is ongoing, then the players are probably responding to a HARD move, which is most suitable on a failed roll or total ignorance of a sign of doom.
The consequences of the danger seem to be problematic; especially in combat/damage scenes where the age old (war)gamer habit of dissecting the fiction into 'turns' seems to muddy the issue. I think everyone's primary advice here is to follow on from the fiction. A 'hard' move doesn't mean random, irrevocable badness happens. It means totally focused, re-incorporated, established and omnipresent badness happens and effects you, so now what are you going to do about it?
So in our play, we've found defy danger can be both; either reacting to the threat of something happening (softer GM move). Or responding to an established danger after it has already effected the fiction (harder GM move). How and why the danger has been introduced is always deeply embedded in what has already been contributed to the story.
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At the risk of sounding obtuse, I'd just like to confirm something in general if you'll indulge me. Going back to the example of the fighter "rolling to the side and then moving up behind the ogre" as a response to a threat of the ogre bringing his club down in some kind of (specifically threatening) devastating smash... assuming the fiction doesn't suggest any other complications for the fighter, avoiding the ogre's club in the manner described does NOT trigger Defy Danger, correct? Because he's not acting despite the danger - he's doing what's appropriate by avoiding it (rolling to the side).
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You're not being obtuse iserith, I keep waffling back and forth between this issue as well throughout the dialogue. It seems to me that sage suggested earlier that perhaps the dodge could be called a Defy Danger and a roll was necessary
Which is why I got caught up on the wording of "acting DESPITE danger". Obviously the dodge is acting purely because of and in relation to the danger. Defy Danger seems to read that its mainly for trying to do something else, perpendicular to the danger. I'm sort of in mind of Shadow of Yesterday when I think about it like that.
But I like that Sage said it can be used both ways. Honestly, I just think its more exciting if there's a roll involved instead of the player just narrating themselves out of danger. And I guess we should keep in mind that, if it wasn't for the follow up hack and slash move...there'd be no debate here right? If the Fighter was instead dodging to the side and sprinting past the ogre to get to some goal...that's clearly Defy Danger. Right? There's something about the follow up attack/hack-and-slash that's making the issue squishy for me though.
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Not obtuse at all, I didn't really make that clear.
Let's look at a few things you could do when the ogre charges you with his club. I find examples establish a lot more fiction, so let's say the GM said this: "The ogre finally takes notice of you and runs across the room at you, winding up a big smash with his club. What do you do?"
If the player says "I dive behind the rock so he can't smash me" they're defying danger. Normally diving behind a rock isn't a roll but they're diving behind despite the club coming at them. I agree that "despite" isn't quite the right word here, I'm open to alternate wordings, but the point is that the players are taking an action to avoid a threat that's not covered by another move.
If the player says "I charge right towards him, setting up my own hammer, this guy doesn't scare me!" they're Hack and Slashing. The ogre's club is already a part of Hack and Slash, not some extra outside complication, so no need to Defy Danger.
If the player says "I duck down behind me shield and set my footing, ready for his strike" they're Defending themselves.
If the player says "I cast Magic Missile on him!" then we probably clarify the fiction a little: how close was the ogre, is there really time to cast a spell before he's in your face? If there's time they just Cast a Spell. If there's not time before the ogre swings then they probably want to think about diving out of the way or something, otherwise they just take damage (and/or whatever other fictional effects getting hit by an ogre's club might have, like being tossed across the room).
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If the player says "I cast Magic Missile on him!" then we probably clarify the fiction a little: how close was the ogre, is there really time to cast a spell before he's in your face? If there's time they just Cast a Spell. If there's not time before the ogre swings then they probably want to think about diving out of the way or something, otherwise they just take damage (and/or whatever other fictional effects getting hit by an ogre's club might have, like being tossed across the room).
There can be a combination of rolls here, too - it's possible that the GM says "if you're going to cast a spell, that ogre is going to smash your shit. If you can Defy Danger, you'll be able to cast the spell. What do you do?" and he could say "I leap out of the way, working my acrobatics into the somatic component of the spell" or "fuck you, ogre, I grit my teeth and let him hit me, but I tough it out." which are both Defy Danger (one with DEX and one with CON) and on a 10+ by some miracle, the caster avoids the danger (not being able to cast the spell) and on a 7-9 exposes themselves to some additional danger - hp damage, an ogre move like "knock someone down" but can still cast the spell. On a miss, the hit happens and the spell don't. Then they're all melee'd by the ogre and have to get out of the way or play the Hack and Slash game.
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"The ogre finally takes notice of you and runs across the room at you, winding up a big smash with his club. What do you do?"
If the player says "I dive behind the rock so he can't smash me" they're defying danger. Normally diving behind a rock isn't a roll but they're diving behind despite the club coming at them. I agree that "despite" isn't quite the right word here, I'm open to alternate wordings, but the point is that the players are taking an action to avoid a threat that's not covered by another move.
If the player says "I charge right towards him, setting up my own hammer, this guy doesn't scare me!" they're Hack and Slashing. The ogre's club is already a part of Hack and Slash, not some extra outside complication, so no need to Defy Danger.
If the player says "I duck down behind me shield and set my footing, ready for his strike" they're Defending themselves.
Thanks for the clarification and discussion, guys. This has been very helpful.
So the lesson here is, if the GM has used a soft move to set up a specific and credible threat, it's (almost) always Defy Danger unless the action taken in response equates to another move. Would you agree with that?
And, if so, could I trouble you to give me an example of a character's response sufficient to neutralize or evade the threat that wouldn't be a Defy Danger and wouldn't be another move? In other words, can a player just as easily come up with some fiction to negate the specific threat without activating a move?
I realize there is no hard and fast rule to this stuff. I'm just trying to train my brain to process and adjudicate as consistently as possible, even if the fiction is never the same.
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"I leap out of the way, working my acrobatics into the somatic component of the spell" or "fuck you, ogre, I grit my teeth and let him hit me, but I tough it out." which are both Defy Danger (one with DEX and one with CON) and on a 10+ by some miracle, the caster avoids the danger (not being able to cast the spell) and on a 7-9 exposes themselves to some additional danger - hp damage, an ogre move like "knock someone down" but can still cast the spell. On a miss, the hit happens and the spell don't.
Sorry to nitpick your examples, but this confuses me.
If I grit my teeth and take the blow, I'm taking damage + effects (knock down, etc.). I just told you I'm taking the blow. The Defy Danger with Con is to let me cast the spell anyway. Yes? On a 10+, roll to cast a spell. On a 7-9... you can cast it, but at with a cost (more damage? cast at -1?) or hard bargain (it'll be wild and out of control for sure, or you'll loose the spell for sure). Miss: spell fizzles.
If I dodge & cast at once, that Defy Danger might keep me from getting hit at all. So 10+, you're home free & roll to cast. 7-9, I'm seeing difficult decision: cast (no penalty) but get hit. Miss: wham, damage + effects + no spell.
(Depending on your stats, dodging is probably smarter. But it's rarely smart to play roshambo with an ogre.)
Or are you saying that there wouldn't be a Cast a Spell roll? That casting would be part of the Defy Danger?
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I'm going to go back to my example from before, just since I've found concrete examples easier to work with (that way all the fiction is stated).
The GM says: "The ogre finally takes notice of you and runs across the room at you, winding up a big smash with his club. What do you do?"
Then the player says: "This ogre is being controlled by the orcs, right? I hold up the chieftan's chain that we stole, and tell him in orcish to stand down."
(For the purposes of this example, all this is true. The ogre was just released from a cage by some orcs, the orc chief has a distinctive chain that is his mark of office, and the ogre is trained enough to reasonably recognize it and respond to it. In a slightly different situation some or all might not apply.)
The GM: "The ogre slows down and kind of skids to a stop in front you of, cocking his head like he's trying to work this out. After a brief moment where it looks like he's still considering smashing you he says 'Who smash?'"
In this situation the player had a way in the fiction of neutralizing the threat without defying it. The GM made a soft move of showing portents of doom (the charging ogre) and the player dealt with it without a move, based on the fiction.
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@ Jeremy
I'm a little confused by that as well because I would interpret someone ignoring the threat of the club as giving me a Golden Opportunity.
@ Sage
Perfect, thanks. I think I've got my head around this now.
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Hey Sage, great example. Could that also be considered a Parley? Obviously the chain has an inherent meaning to the Ogre, possibly his training has taught him that defying the chain means pain. Seems there is some kind of leverage there and the character is using it.
Could go either way?
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Yup, could go either way. It depends on what the ogre's like. In my head he's like a trained dog, his listens to whoever has the chain. If he's more like a human then you might be Parleying.
We're adding some discussion of how Parley works too. I use this simple way of looking at if Parley applies (assuming they already have leverage): is the player taking action to make up the target's mind for them? Just telling someone to do something while you have leverage over them isn't Parley, it's when you use that leverage to try to make up their mind for them that Parley happens. (This may not be the clearest in the current text, we're working on it, this understanding grew from a lot of forum threads)
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... could I trouble you to give me an example of a character's response sufficient to neutralize or evade the threat that wouldn't be a Defy Danger and wouldn't be another move? In other words, can a player just as easily come up with some fiction to negate the specific threat without activating a move?
"I open the door."
"There's a goblin in the room, with a bow. He raises it and hisses!"
"I shut the door."
;)
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Or are you saying that there wouldn't be a Cast a Spell roll? That casting would be part of the Defy Danger?
No, there's definitely two rolls, here. Making that Defy Danger roll is the mechanism behind the GM saying;
HERE IS A THING, DEAL WITH IT and the player saying NO. I IGNORE YOUR THING.
So then you need to Defy Danger. The move is always reactive, but is often called for when the player is reacting so that they can do something above and beyond just getting the hell out of the way. Two rolls, in this case, but related. It's like, you're in the middle of a situation where something is ABSOLUTELY DEMANDING YOUR ATTENTION and if right now, you don't tell me "I deal with that thing." then you are defying danger and you need to explain how.
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... could I trouble you to give me an example of a character's response sufficient to neutralize or evade the threat that wouldn't be a Defy Danger and wouldn't be another move? In other words, can a player just as easily come up with some fiction to negate the specific threat without activating a move?
"I open the door."
"There's a goblin in the room, with a bow. He raises it and hisses!"
"I shut the door."
Ha ha, yep.
;)
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John's example is much clearer than mine. I was trying to come up with ways to fit my example into the one I was already using but, well, simplicity is awesome.
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HERE IS A THING, DEAL WITH IT and the player saying NO. I IGNORE YOUR THING.
So then you need to Defy Danger. It's like, you're in the middle of a situation where something is ABSOLUTELY DEMANDING YOUR ATTENTION and if right now, you don't tell me "I deal with that thing." then you are defying danger and you need to explain how.
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I think Adam has touched on something here that the examples provided have only touched on. Sage's idea of waving the chain at the ogre gets at where I'm going though.
The conversation of roleplaying DW is filled with questioning, by the GM and the PC's. This questioning provides answers which in turn establish the fiction. If the answers are nebulous or not readily apparent, a move more than likely activates in the narrative 'space', to determine where the story goes.
I think its important to extrapolate the colourful richness of the scene before diving in to a move. Players naturally do this, as it adds imagery to their narration, and sometimes comes up with something rather un-expected (like the chain with the ogre), its this lovely back and forth of detail between the players and GM.
So its more than a room with a cage and a few orcs and a released ogre. That gives you only a few hooks to hang your fictional hat on.
You can focus on the physical space: Is the room a natural cavern? Man/dwarf/orc made? How is the cage constructed? What are the monsters wearing? How is the place lit?
You can dig down to the whys and wherefores: What do the monsters do here in this cave? Where does it lead to, who else in allowed through here?
Or you can focus on the thoughts and feelings: Why is the ogre dimwitted? Is that smaller orc the same one you allowed to escape earlier? The orc gesticulating with his claw has the dead cleric's mace slung through his rawhumanhide belt, how does that make you feel?
My rather longwinded point is that we naturally ask a lot more questions (many of which are discarded) during actual play than examples tend to show. The principle of ask questions and use the answers is so important here when a move's use or implementation is unclear. These questions are vital in determining the fiction and thus clarity of the resultant moves that arise and the consequences of the roll to the story.
So defy danger needs an imminent threat. If its not apparent, question a little more until it is or simply keep roleplaying and asking lots of questions until another move (player or GM) presents itself.
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The way I've been interpreting Defy Danger is as follows:
If there is a danger or threat then the PC can:
a) Ignore it and do what he wants. This is a Golden Opportunity for the GM but the player can make his move. "You see a goblin aiming a bow at you." "I don't care about a goblin, I enter the room, look around and cast Magic Weapon on my sword." GM gets to make a hard move for the PC ignoring his threat but the PC can make his move as well.
b) Avoid it by describing how he deals with the threat or danger. This can be solved by the fiction by the PC just explaining what he does. "You see a goblin aiming his bow at you". "I shut the door." PC dealt with the threat with fiction, no move needed.
c) Act despite the danger because the PC wants to make a specific move without dealing with the threat. "You see a goblin aiming a bow at you". "I rush in and try to tackle him before he gets a shot off". The PC will have to roll a Defy Danger because he is acting despite the threat. Then he may or may not have to make another roll (maybe Hack and Slash) depending on his fiction.
Ignore, avoid, or act despite...those are the three ways I interpret threats and dangers.
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The way I've been interpreting Defy Danger is as follows:
These are all good, solid interpretations of the rules.