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powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: nemomeme on February 19, 2012, 12:12:24 AM

Title: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: nemomeme on February 19, 2012, 12:12:24 AM
"On a 7–9, you deal your damage to the enemy and the enemy makes an attack against you."

I am curious how often GMs are interpreting this Move result as "the enemy you are already fictionally engaged in mortal combat with at Close range does their damage to you."

How often do they instead do something like drive the PC back or do some kind of narrative only monster move like "attach to someone" etc.

Do you interpret monster Moves like "Catch something or someone on fire," "Spray forth acid, eating away at metal and flesh," "Pierce armor with sharp front teeth," or "Throw someone," etc. as also inflicting damage or do you more likely to interpret these as "Show Signs of Doom" and not deal damage yet? More importantly, how do you decide?

I seem to have zero issues making these kinds of Moves and decisions when running AW for people I know who've played a lot of "hippy" games but am much more ambivalent when running it for people whose experience is primarily D&D.  They want to know just how the fuck am I deciding whether or not to do 9 damage to the guy that has 8 hit points left or instead say, "the lizardman's club batters your shield and forces you back.  Your arm goes numb and you see another lizardman closing in with a net!" following an "8" result on Hack & Slash.

Part of me is asking because I think I'm suggesting elsewhere that Adam and Sage really make certain to get their damage numbers calibrated right and part of me is thinking, "maybe that doesn't even matter so much for Dungeon World when the lethality of a given scenario is going to so strongly hinge on GM convention."
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: John Harper on February 19, 2012, 01:57:47 AM
This question strikes at the heart of what is currently a bit wonky in Dungeon World. The answer is a game design challenge and I don't think it's been overcome yet.

I'm sort of working on it, over here in my hermit cave. I know Sage and Adam are, too.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Mike Olson on February 19, 2012, 05:43:13 AM
It's certainly something we've been experiencing during Living Dungeon World (happening now!). Early in an adventure, dealing damage to them is a viable option. Later, when dealing damage is guaranteed to kill them, it's just the GM deciding whether they live or (half the time) die. Last Breath is a cool move and all, but not so much when you roll a miss.

(Related: Last night I killed a PC and he rolled a 5 on his Last Breath. Today, my PC was killed in another game, and I rolled a 5 on my Last Breath. Justice! Live by the Last Breath, die by the Last Breath, I guess.)

It's a perfect storm of higher monster damage, not-higher Armor values, and the illusion of great character survivability created by higher HP totals. Oh! And the increasing disparity between HP totals at low levels and high levels, making it more difficult for a party of widely varying levels (say, 3 or so) to face the same risks together. These have all been (or are about to be) problems for us this weekend.

But! That said, Living Dungeon World's been a big success. We've exposed a lot of new players to the game, and everyone's had a great time with it.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: JBMannon on February 19, 2012, 06:30:46 AM
I had an issue with that last night in my game. I try and keep a pretty even mix of damaging attacks and narrative attacks and I try to give bigger monsters cooler narrative moves so that I feel more inclined to use them. Last night I had a player that got bashed with 14 damage and died, rolling snake eyes on his Last Breath. Which felt a little flat. I gave him the choice to have his new companion take the hit instead if he wanted which I should have had happen anyway as she was highly devoted to him. The NPCs death caused more trouble for the characters as they almost ended up thrown in jail.

I obviously need to make some changes to my monster (14 damage, 4 armor, and 18 HP) but I also need to give it some more interesting moves. Two obvious moves from the fiction were to throw someone around and cause destruction.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: noofy on February 19, 2012, 06:49:42 AM
Quote
Why play Dungeon World? First, to see the characters do amazing things. To see them
explore the unexplored, slay the undying, and go from the deepest bowels of the world to the highest peaks of the heavens. To see them caught up in momentous events and grand tragedies.
Second, to see them play off each other: to stand together as a united front against their foes or to bicker and argue over treasure. To unite and fall apart and reunite again.
Third, because the world still has so many places to explore. There are unlooted tombs and dragon hordes dotting the countryside just waiting for quick-fingered and strong-armed adventurers to discover them. That unexplored world has plans of its own. We play to see what they are and how they'll change the lives of our characters.

I quote this because although this is at the heart of most Heroic Fantasy RPGs, when you combine it with the GM's principles you will find this truism:

Quote
At all times, use your principles and agenda as a filter or inspiration. If something falls flat it's usually because you ignored one of your principles or acted on a different agenda. If you're unsure of what you're about to say just take a moment and look at your agenda and principles to make sure you're abiding by them.

So in your query to assuage the crunchy hearts of diehard D&Ders, just follow your principles, make a move that opens up their idea on what you are trying to achieve as their DM.

Quote
The GM should also set expectations: the players are to play their characters as people. Skilled adventurers delving into dangerous places, but real people. The GM's role is to play the rest of the world as a dynamic, changing place.

Ask questions and use the answers You don't have to know everything. If you don't know, or you don't have an idea, just ask the players and use what they say.

So if you need to make an attack as a GM move from Hack & Slash, and you see that the characters have enough HP to weather the blow (or not maybe?), but the monster has a cool narrative attack - and the players have been rather flabbergasted as you chop and change between dealing damage or narratively 'hitting' them with attacks - just ask....

No seriously.
OK, so I howl with fury and I brain the filthy orkaster with my trusty mace as it jabbers away to its foul gods, RAWWWWR! Hack and slash yeah?
'Yup, it scowls menacingly with wicked sharp teeth and waves a bone wand defensively in your general direction.'
'Oh bother and damnation, an 8. I manage a weak flurry of peppering shots I guess for a measly 2 damage. I suppose the ork wizard casts a spell on me?' *sigh*

The cleric's player looks expectantly at you (you feel that the player is a little unsure of the 'system' and has already seen the orkcaster previously cast whispers of evil and fill the thief's head with profane suggestions.)

You look at the Cleric's HP pool and see that a blast from the acid orb (deal 13 damage) will cause them to drop below 0 HP, so you go with telling them the consequences and asking. Turning to the thief - who has the bond of insulting the cleric's deity! - you say:
The gutteral mindspeak of the ork shaman fills your brain, wondering, wondering. Tell me mortal, before I squeeze the life out of your pitiful brain, should I melt your priest with acid or paralyze him before his useless god as long as I deem it so?

You are gently showing (and letting them author) their own Heroic Adventure! You are fan of the characters remember? Don't want to force them to make the Death's Door move as you deal damage? Then tell them the consequences and ask. Works for me.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Glitch on February 19, 2012, 07:12:04 AM
The D&D players I ran DW for felt that there was too much arbitrary fiat in the hands of the GM.  If the GM is a fan of the players, and their fate is clearly in his hands, why would he ever deal damage that he knows would kill them?  The fixed monster damage opens a big can of worms for the poor GM that I believe would largely be solved by deferring the decision to the dice ... let the GM roll the monster damage (and I don't mean vary it by a few d4s).  But, alas, I know, GM's don't roll dice in *W games!  This might be a legitimate argument against that convention.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: mease19 on February 19, 2012, 07:49:42 AM
If the GM is a fan of the players, and their fate is clearly in his hands, why would he ever deal damage that he knows would kill them? 
When players put it all on the line.  When the game is wrapping up and there is an opportunity for an epic death.  When custom moves make death even more interesting (that said, I miss random monster damage too).
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: noofy on February 19, 2012, 08:00:38 AM
He would kill them Glitch because he has warned them. Warned them and told them the consequences and asked. 'You know that if you engage in the furious dance of death with this evil Lizard King there is every chance he will spit you through and eat you, despite your legendary skill with an axe. Do you still wish to leap into the pit and attempt to slay him?'

It allow the characters to shine, for the fighter to revel in his martial prowess and the Paladin to protect those weaker than him, for the wizard to cast bolts of death from his fingers and the bard to sing songs of joy and happiness (wait, what?!).

Bards not withstanding, the GM's job is not that of the wargame opponent, making strategic combat choices using clearly defined numeric, random, ranges to provide a suitable tactical, measurable opponent to the adventuring combat party. The GM's Job is to make their world of adventure real!
Quote
If they have worked to achieve something, you should give it to them fully. You're not here to fight back against the players; you're not opposed to them at all. You are playing the game with them.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Glitch on February 19, 2012, 08:19:20 AM
Good advice noofy.  I did use this approach when the paladin in one game insisted on striking a leucrota that was wrestling on the ground with the wizard. I warned him that if he went ahead with the attack there was a good chance he might hit the wizard instead. Sure enough, he ignored the warning and his sword wound up skewering the wizard and he failed his Last Breath. Keeping this approach in mind does a lot to mitigate the problem.

Still ... I do like rolling monster damage for other reasons. It removes some of the feeling of unfairness the players feel when they roll 1 or 2 for damage and the monsters always take "max" damage :)

Note this has nothing to do with trying to create numerical ranges to support a " balanced encounter".  My motivation stems more from applying some symmetry to damage and remove any chance of frustration that stems from the current asymmetry.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: iserith on February 19, 2012, 11:14:43 AM
I had an issue with that last night in my game. I try and keep a pretty even mix of damaging attacks and narrative attacks and I try to give bigger monsters cooler narrative moves so that I feel more inclined to use them. Last night I had a player that got bashed with 14 damage and died, rolling snake eyes on his Last Breath. Which felt a little flat. I gave him the choice to have his new companion take the hit instead if he wanted which I should have had happen anyway as she was highly devoted to him. The NPCs death caused more trouble for the characters as they almost ended up thrown in jail.

I obviously need to make some changes to my monster (14 damage, 4 armor, and 18 HP) but I also need to give it some more interesting moves. Two obvious moves from the fiction were to throw someone around and cause destruction.

The moment had something of a retcon-ish feel to it, but it works when you consider everything through the lens of the The Hangover-esque session we ended up with! "Oh yeah, that's right... now that I remember it clearly, Mel didn't die!"

I think that sometimes it would help to have a visual aid - some pogs thrown up on the screen just so that everyone's on the same page with regard to relative positions, number of enemies, and whatnot. It might serve as a useful reminder for the DM of where interesting moves could be applied. (But this is getting off-topic.)
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Glitch on February 19, 2012, 12:21:24 PM
That's a nice call.  It's cool that the game can support a variety of styles.  Some groups like a more free-wheeling adventure where there's very little threat of anyone biting the bullet.  But other groups thrive on the stakes established by the very real danger that a character might die.

If you give players the choice to avoid death through fiat, it's a tricky slope, because then all of them will be asking for the same treatment when it comes time for them to face Death's Door.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: nemomeme on February 19, 2012, 12:57:05 PM
Thanks to everyone who has weighed in so far.

I'm about two hours from rolling dice with a bunch of friends who mostly play 3.X & 4E.  It will be their first exposure to DW.

Over the last few weeks I kept thinking about "raise the death flag/mark XP" type solutions but kept coming back to, "Naw, screw that - they raised the death flag when they decided to go on this adventure." 

I just need a way to arbitrate this consistently, something I simply didn't need and was not needed in AW.  Unless the PCs turn on each other or the fiction puts them in a spot like falling out of a hot air balloon, it is *really* hard to kill PCs in Apocalypse World because they can almost always "level-drain" a stat instead.  And that works really well for AW because the game isn't really about challenging the PCs with death in pursuit of their goals.  In AW there're almost always fates *worse* than death that you can throw into the mix that just aren't often there in a dungeon. 

Dungeon World, at least for the way I want to run/play it and the expectations most people I am likely to play it with, is a very different beast.

I really don't want to roll damage dice.  Not today anyway.

I am going to do what I tended to do with AW which is the first miss in a conflict/fight (or 7-9 on a H&S) is always setting up for Harm/Damage fictionally.  Even when I've already forecast that. (future doom/badness).  But then every miss (or 7-9 on a H&S) after that is Damage + fiction.  And I'm going to tell them that's how I'm handling it today.  With AW I was totally comfortable mixing it up.  Not with DW with this group, I think.

I think I'll have to dial back the damage on my creatures slightly and take a couple of them out of some areas as a result.

I wonder whether a small part of a long term solution is making Death care about CON for the Death roll.  Players would get to make a decision and flag for the GM how much they care that their PC lives, and it would be at an opportunity cost with other stats.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Dan Maruschak on February 19, 2012, 01:50:25 PM
I've only GMed one session, but when I created my monster moves I didn't make any of them seem like they ought to directly cause damage since it seemed to me like they should be in a different category. On the 7-9 result I interpret the rules as "either do the monster's damage or do one of your pre-decided monster moves" and I try to do the one which makes the most sense from the flow of the fiction. With the high damage numbers in 1.1 seems to make the 7-9 H&S result have higher stakes than the miss result since the GM has more non-damaging choices on a miss, which I don't like. I think the high damage in 1.1 makes doing damage stand out as very different from any of the other choices a GM can make, which I'm not crazy about from the design perspective.

Personally, I try not to know what the PC's current HP values are, because that influences my decision-making in a way I don't like. I don't think a DW GM should ever be making a decision that translates easily into "does the PC live or die?". It seems like whether a PC lives through the dungeon should be one of those "play to find out" things, not something that's anyone's individual decision. With the high damage in 1.1 I think it's really hard to maintain that mindset because you know how scary a single hit can be. I think ideally a DW GM should be a neutral arbiter, not a thrill-ride-operator, but I'm not sure how possible that is in 1.1.

The fixed monster damage opens a big can of worms for the poor GM that I believe would largely be solved by deferring the decision to the dice ... let the GM roll the monster damage (and I don't mean vary it by a few d4s).  But, alas, I know, GM's don't roll dice in *W games!  This might be a legitimate argument against that convention.
One potential course would be to make PC armor into dice rather than a flat value (either as a polyhedral like player damage or as a roll+Armor move).
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: noofy on February 19, 2012, 06:25:46 PM
I've been thinking about this all night, to the point at which my dreams were of DW (how sad is that?), but the result has been a few ideas :)

First, I really really get the disconnect between player variable damage and monster fixed damage. My first impulse (which I wrote a post about ages ago) was to make PC damage fixed too, like in AW. Sage and Adam said that that was dragging the game away from the roots of 'to-hit & damage' of D&D and I agree.

So, then I thought, perhaps the players could roll the monster's damage when the fiction warranted it? They then held the onus for the damage caused to their character. Do you give them the option of attack fictional move or hard damage each time? Too much rolling? I don't know.

I don't think that the DM is a 'neutral Arbiter' Dan. The rules explain what your role is, its totally on the side of the characters. Dungeon World calls you to act in a particular way as GM for the rules to work at their best. Sure, you are refereeing and adjudicating, but always with your agenda and principles in mind. Dealing damage to the players is a HARD move, one of the hardest you can make and you need to think if that is warranted fictionally (in or out of combat)?

@Nemo: I like your style! And I agree wholeheartedly with your evaluation of AW PCs. I like to relate them to Paragon Tier 4e characters, death being the least of their high-powered concerns. Taking away their stuff on the other hand....

That's a great way to frame the rules for a first session of DW with some folks used to 4e. Awesome! I know that consistency is important, so perhaps the process is consistent? Perhaps with the Death Move you could treat each situation on a case-by-case basis? If the player seems really upset that their character might die, use everything in the RAW to help them. Give them choices. The rules are there to help everyone tell a good story and they are very malleable fictionally. If you like, you can always make up your own rules as a custom move!

'Who has the highest bond with you? How can they help you face death? Tell me what you do.' Or give them an opportunity very much with a cost (which is effectively the death move as is). 'That blow should have killed you, any other mortal would have died, but not you. There is no afterlife, no gods, no death offering bargains, you are just left for dead.'

When you take your last breath but refuse to die, you are in a coma and let for dead. You have 1 HP. Take all the damage you have suffered below zero and divide it among your Stats, subtracting as you see fit. No Stat may go below 3. Adjust your bonuses accordingly. You are scarred, physically and mentally. This is a life changing event for you, when you awake tell us all about it.

@Glitch: I dig what you are doing man, it is a tricky slope! If all the players clamour for the same 'treatment' everytime they face death's door, then my favourite GM move is to disclaim decision making and sometimes let the players decide. 'I don't know? Do think they should die? Or live?'

Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: lucias on February 20, 2012, 02:02:00 AM
We played our first session with tonight (with 1.1) and had a blast. I have to say, as the GM, the topic of this very thread was the greatest stumbling block. Reviewing the sessions it seems that, as this thread points out, the interpretations of when and how monsters attack is very liberal right now.

I'm not sure that's a bad thing, at least for experienced GMs. I never dealt straight damage to the PCs this game, as that seemed a bit unfair to me, but would often rely on narrating an attack and then letting the PCs react. They usually Defied Danger and the outcome from that almost always ended up being a mix of narrative flavor and real damage.  It worked well for the group.

I do think a discussion of this should be somewhere in the rules though, instead of being left to inference.

When talking about this and potential lethalness, I think everyone has to remember the flip side of the coin. Don't be afraid to make monsters and traps as deadly as you want. We have another dial with which to tune things: Last Breath.

By defining Last Breath in different ways you can have a lot more down-but-not-dead situations.  Say I want to have a more pulply/cinematic campaign where the heroes get beat up but rarely die. I could simply redefine Last Breath as:

10+ PC lives and finds the will to live - regain 5 HP (maybe even take a +1 to the next roll)
7-9: Cling to life - stabilize at zero HP.
2-6: Die

You can make a million variations of that, even eliminating death if you like.  One of the great things about this ruleset is that it's really hard to do something completely broken.  There's a lot of levers and dials you can adjust to your group's preference. Unlike Sage and Adam we don't have to worry about finding a baseline that will appeal to both their vision and the game and everyone who plays it. We can take what they create and tailor it to what our group desires.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Doug Hare on February 20, 2012, 12:32:32 PM
Is there any value or point to leaving monster damage values high, but giving players a Move to reduce damage if they get hit?

Say: when you take damage from an opponent roll +Armour*, on a 7-9 reduce the damage dealt by half**, on a 10+ reduce it by three-quarters**?

* or +Dex or + Con might also be options.

**Clearly, the proportions need to be considered carefully, the values I've used there were just placeholders to get the Move written down.

Naturally, you can't use this Move if you're surprised or unaware of the attack, in which case it's just the usual damge-armour.

Is it at all feasible? It keeps the dice-rolling on the players' side.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: mease19 on February 20, 2012, 12:50:14 PM
What about:

When you take damage from an opponent, roll+Armor.  On a 10+, your armor protects you - take half damage.  On a 7-9, your armor takes the brunt of the damage - you may take half damage but reduce your armor by 1.

The problem with this type of move is that it would extend the combats without adding much to the fiction, even with the potential to bang up their armor.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: noofy on February 20, 2012, 05:11:07 PM
I like this train of thought  Doug (and Marshall).
What about a move that is a choice, but doesn't involve rolling (and thus the potential for even more failure / hard moves, and slowing the fiction down).

When you take damage from an opponent, Suck it up and take your damage (-armour) or you may take half damage but then reduce your armor by 1.

Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Doug Hare on February 20, 2012, 06:40:13 PM
How about taking a -1 forward as you're knocked off balance or winded? Losing armour seems a little too much for me, but I'll confess, my play group's not even level 2 yet.

D.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: nemomeme on February 20, 2012, 08:25:00 PM
I ran a 1.1 game Sunday.  Three PCs.  A Paladin, a Cleric a Thief.

There was a combat against ghouls early on.  Five of them.  3 HP & 8 damage as I'd settled on it, with a couple Moves as determined by the nature of the ghouls in their environment.  It was the Thief with two of the ghouls for the first "round" with the Paladin, the Cleric, and three more ghouls joining in thereafter.

I felt like I had to really pull my punches at a couple points to keep the Thief from having to make the Last Breath Move forty-five minutes after he'd been created.  Even with the Cleric's Turn Undead Move about.

Worse, there was a narrative/fun break down as the Paladin and the Cleric had done a couple things each and it felt like the Thief player's "turn" to perhaps do something about the ghoul slavering over his throat but he indicated he felt a strong disincentive to do anything because he only had 6 hit points and the ghouls "hit for 8 damage."  I'd already had the ghouls make a non-damaging Move against him on his prior Miss.  He looked to the nearby Cleric character to bail him out of his predicament again.  The flow of the story just... stopped.

That's when I realized it doesn't only matter that the GM feels confident about how they're consistently applying their Moves & Damage.  If the player isn't sure how the rules work with regard to when they're going to get hit with a lethal dose of damage, the game can grind to a bit of a halt.  And this is with a friend I've been role-playing with for more than ten years with a lot of trust between us.

All three of the players felt doing a Hack and Slash Move was a huge risk if you were wounded.  We carried on with the session.  I think everyone had a great time overall but I didn't initiate a second combat even though there were a couple opportunities where I might have.

I freely admit my opposition budget may have been off as I feel my way forward with a new game.  But the decisions of what to do for "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You" when the PC is down to their last hp is still going to be present for me as the rules stand.

There are some interesting thoughts in this thread and in some of the others about various alternatives.  A couple seem promising, most others feel very "off" to me right off the bat.

Also, I'm sure you're aware the Cleric's Turn Undead still references monster levels.

One thing I like about monster levels with regard to some of these possible solutions is that they have the potential to provide an additional dial to the GM in monster creation.  Like monsters of a higher level threaten PCs this way but monsters of equal level threaten PCs that way.  (modifiers to death rolls or armor or -1 forwards or stat drain options, etc.)
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: noofy on February 20, 2012, 11:06:12 PM
Great analysis Nemo! Thanks for sharing, that's too bad about the disconnect in play, and the thief player feeling hamstrung. Sounds like a tense driven session at the very least!

I guess you went with Ghould being able to devour a peasant and normally found in small groups? (thus the 8 damage). The last iteration of a Ghoul dealt 4 damage, but had some really cool attack moves based around biting, infecting and paralyzing. Did you copy those over?

Also, the thought of 5 ghouls against three level one PC's (even with turn undead) is a pretty intense life-or-death scenario! I'd have been reluctant to engage in Hack and Slash if I was the thief too! That's the job of the fighty types after all!

Perhaps the Playbooks need a short Blurb similar to the Guide to Chargen in AW where it says 'play this character if you like__________' or 'play is character if you want to____________ in play'.

When you feel like this:
Quote
I freely admit my opposition budget may have been off as I feel my way forward with a new game.  But the decisions of what to do for "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You" when the PC is down to their last hp is still going to be present for me as the rules stand.

My advice is to throw it back on the players, address the characters of course, but disclaim desicion making and let them decide. I wasn't there of course, but knowing that with one more melee engagement the thief will die if hit (did he consider other more promising narration - and thus moves - within the fiction?)
So as the thief looks at you, frozen into inaction and the conversation halts - make your move.

'Hey Cleric, you see that the theif is about to be eaten alive by the pack of ghouls hemming him in. You could drive them back before your gods holy light, saving his dishonest hide, but the three you have been turning will undoubtedly tear you to shreds' [offer an opportunity with or without  a cost]
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Dan Maruschak on February 21, 2012, 01:00:22 AM
I don't think that the DM is a 'neutral Arbiter' Dan. The rules explain what your role is, its totally on the side of the characters. Dungeon World calls you to act in a particular way as GM for the rules to work at their best. Sure, you are refereeing and adjudicating, but always with your agenda and principles in mind. Dealing damage to the players is a HARD move, one of the hardest you can make and you need to think if that is warranted fictionally (in or out of combat)?
I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me. My read of the rules is that you're not on anyone's side, you're there to play it straight:
Quote from: Dungeon World
Be a fan of the characters
Treat the players' characters like characters you watch on TV. You want to see how things turn out for them. You're not here to make them lose, or to make them win, and definitely not to guide them to your story. You're here to portray the interesting world around them and see how interacting with that world changes everything.
My reading of the "be a fan" principle is strongly influenced by my experience with a different game where I found that eliminating any kind of "dynamic danger scaling" from my GM toolbox let me appreciate the players' contributions to the game in a way I couldn't when that lever was available to me (I talk about it in this blog post (http://www.danmaruschak.com/blog/2011/10/02/the-psychology-of-gm-prep/), in the indented quote section).
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: noofy on February 21, 2012, 01:42:49 AM
I don't think we are disagreeing either Dan :)

On a miss on hack and slash, you can still just deal damage (as established) and the character has not dealt any damage in return, so that in my mind is still way HARDER than a 7-9 result.

I read your blog, interesting thoughts on prep. I found a similar process with all the Burning games (especially the heavily structured MG). Prep is still vital, its just a different kind of prep. But you are still playing to find out what happens yeah?

But back to hack and slash and dealing damage. I concur that a DM shouldn't be making too many decisions about if the PCs should live or die (though they could). Rather, warn the players. Tell them the stakes (as framed by the fiction) and ask.

If monsters deal large amounts of damage then they are dangerous and should be respected as such! There are far more inventive ways of dealing with a monster than simple hack and slash, though sometimes that's the tried and true D&D way.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Anarchangel on February 21, 2012, 03:00:13 PM
My take on the role of the GM is this: I'm a fan of the characters, and I'm there to make live dangerous, exciting and heroic. So my job is to push the players to the limit and make them be awesome to survive. It's a fine line, and sometimes a character will fall over the edge, but if they die being awesome, then that's an awesome death.

I don't see myself as neutral, to me, that implies that I"m just applying the rules impassively. I don't. I pull blows, I foretell doom, and when the PCs know how deadly it is and have made the choice to stick it out, I'll pound them and see what falls out.

In my Living Dungeon World finale, the Ysolde the Archmage (L4 or 5 Wizard) was facing down an Avatar of Orcus, blasting it with fireball after fireball and absorbing attacks with his mirror image until they were all gone, then he threw his magical simalcra in the way of the crushing fist of the Avatar, and missed. "The fist drives into you for 30 points of damage", I said. I knew the blow would kill Ysolde When from the other side of the table, a hand is interposed, thrust between me and Ysolde's player, it's Regulus the Paladin (I think, level 3, just), "I have two Defence hold, I throw myself in front of the Avatar's fist, and half the damage".

DUNGEON WORLD!
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: noofy on February 21, 2012, 03:42:25 PM
Round of riotous applause and cheering uncontrollably! Woot!

DUNGEON WORLD!!!!!! Your games rock Angel-A.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Anarchangel on February 21, 2012, 05:40:31 PM
I'm planning to be at conventions in Wellington on May 5 (Day of Games) or Christchurch on June 2-3 (Buckets of Dice), noofy ;)
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Mike Olson on February 22, 2012, 02:14:52 AM
"The fist drives into you for 30 points of damage", I said. I knew the blow would kill Ysolde When from the other side of the table, a hand is interposed, thrust between me and Ysolde's player, it's Regulus the Paladin (I think, level 3, just), "I have two Defence hold, I throw myself in front of the Avatar's fist, and half the damage".

DUNGEON WORLD!
That was an awesome, perfect moment -- in part because taking that blow brought the paladin down to 2 HP. He couldn't take another one like that. It really upped the stakes.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: nemomeme on February 24, 2012, 09:13:09 PM
I don't know whether the Thief player considered "more promising" narration. He's still going to have to roll if he does something. In my mind there was no safe Move once the Thief was on his back with a ghoul slavering over this throat, and he'd already gotten into that position via Attacks from misses and 7-9 H&Ss; the only Move that makes sense to me if the Thief misses again is the hard one to do damage. The safe maneuver was to instead look pleadingly at the Cleric (and to me for my okay) even though the Cleric had just done a couple cool things.

Maybe it was just a perfect storm of me assigning too high of damage for my ghouls, the Thief going ahead of the rest of the party for one round, the Thief H&S'ing early w/o benefit of a Defender, and a Paladin that decided to give the Thief a +1 forward with his 7-9 Defend hold instead keeping it for a re-direct or a half-damage when he did join the fray. If we hadn't *just* finished character creation for a new game that I wanted to make sure these buddies would enjoy, guys I hadn't gamed with for a few months, I probably would have said "Piotr (the Cleric) is busy dealing with his situation. We're back in time a few moments and *you've* got to do something to get out of this mess." And then had him roll and risk hitting him again for 8 damage.

It definitely felt lame. Letting the Cleric go again and thereby keep the Thief alive felt lame and having the Thief make the Last Breath move would have felt even more lame.

I told another Adventurer's Guild member about some of the issues I'd seen with combat and he wrote, "Damage as a hard move is a challenge for me. It feels transgressive, like bullying."

Without some sort of changes, I think it's going to feel like that to me sometimes too for a Step On Up X-World game.
 
Regardless of *my* comfort level, I wouldn't be surpised to hear of other situations where PCs are looking to the gal nearby who's at full hitpoints to do something (again?) rather than stepping up to try something heroic and interesting themselves when they're in the soup.  This is the exact opposite dynamic from even the grittiest of the D&D OSR clones where doing *something* is always better than doing nothing when you're in dire straits, when you're at that that moment where heroes and the most enthralling of war stories are born.  Or to hear of other GMs who are uncomfortable pulling the damage trigger in a pattern unpredictable to their players.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Anarchangel on February 24, 2012, 09:51:53 PM
I will often put a weaker character in a spot like that ("The ghoul leaps at you, slavering, cruel teeth aimed at your neck") then cut away to the other players ("Omar the thief is about to be mauled by a ghoul and there are two more advancing on you, what do you do?"). This usually results in someone else saving them before they have to risk their own skin.

I think the solution to your problem is to be aware that you can paint yourself into this corner and to strive to avoid it before it happens. So if you're not prepared to pull the trigger on a hard move, don't get stuck in the situation where you feel you have to. I imagine you'll recognise this situation before it arises next time you play.

I like to start adventures with easy fights for this reason (like a swarm of Cave Rats: 2 damage (1 piercing), 6HP). It lets the players get a feel for the way the moves work and the consequences of various moves in a relatively safe way. Then in the next fight, try to hit someone who can take it hard early; so if it's those 8 dmg ghouls, hit the Fighter hard, so the Wizard can see the danger.

The essence of AW is that you usually don't get what you want, and every action you take actively moves the story in a different direction, so I don't think there's a mechanical solution to your problem.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Glitch on February 24, 2012, 09:56:24 PM
That was a tough spot for you as GM.  I like your instinct to put the pressure on the Thief and ask them "what do YOU do, with a slavering Ghoul descending on you with its foul breath and rotted pointed teeth?"  Rather than Hack & Slash again, the Thief might have tried to roll and slip out of the Ghoul's clutches (Defy Danger with DEX) or simply extend his arms and hold the Ghoul as far away as he could (Defy Danger with STR).  On these rolls, a 7-9 doesn't automatically cause the Ghoul to make an attack.  And it might have given the Thief some time for the Cleric or anyone in to move in and help.

I hear what you're saying about the feeling of being bullied with the Damage move.  It sucks when a Fighter rolls a 1 or 2 for damage a few times, and is consistently hit back by a walloping 8 from the Ghoul.  I think many players coming from D&D style games will find this pretty unfair, but it's easy enough to house rule having the GM roll for the monster damage.  Although this breaks the Cardinal Commandment of *W games ("The GM shalt not roll dice") it might make the players feel like there's more fair game mechanics behind the narration.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: noofy on February 24, 2012, 10:35:35 PM
Hamish, that's some awesome advice about being aware of getting to that 'hard damage move' trigger position. Should be in the GM's guide for sure.

Glitch, so true! I was thinking that defy danger was an obvious alternative too. Perhaps the thief needed to just pin down what they were doing first. Its all to easy to shape the fiction to the 'fight' moves of Hack and slash, when really, we should always be saying what we are doing and then seeing if it triggers a move. Melee isn't always about Hack and slash and dealing damage.

In terms of monsters static damage and player rolled damage, maybe we can still make it seem fairer (especially if the fighter has just rolled a couple of ones or twos in a row), whilst still abiding by the rules, by offering them an opportunity with or without a cost?
'Hey you hit? Awesome, instead of rolling for damage, how bout you give me a wickedly detailed description of you dealing damage? If you do, you can deal half the possible maximum damage you could achieve (instead of rolling).'   I'm a fan of the characters, yes?
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Anarchangel on February 25, 2012, 02:13:54 AM
Although this breaks the Cardinal Commandment of *W games ("The GM shalt not roll dice")...

I rolled a die during my Living Dungeon World Finale last weekend and everyone just looked at me, accusingly.


But in all* seriousness, the GM can have the players roll the monster damage so the prime directive stays intact.

*Well... most.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Glitch on February 25, 2012, 09:26:53 AM
This is only the first step down the path of evil my friend ...

I'm dying to know what you rolled for :)
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Anarchangel on February 25, 2012, 11:47:34 AM
That's the worst thing... I can't remember.

It's like I opened my mind to the psychic dice-storm, rolled a 7-9, and everything seemed to go smoothly... but I know it's out there... waiting...
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Mike Olson on February 25, 2012, 12:45:18 PM
That's the worst thing... I can't remember.
And we couldn't figure it out. It was a single d6, and you rolled it three times. Honestly, I think it may have been to determine how many death knights were going to be in the scene, but I couldn't say for sure.
Title: Re: "The Enemy Makes An Attack Against You"
Post by: Anarchangel on February 25, 2012, 04:50:32 PM
Oh, that's right! The Death Knights were in linked master-slave pairs and when the master Knight died, the slave Knight died too. So, I was working out which of the Knights had taken damage (there were three pairs at that point and one of each pair had been hit). The dice told me that you'd wounded the master of each pair, and because you each focused your attacks (or annihilated both with Fireballs...), the master-slave relationship never came up except in the colour of their attacks.

It was a callback to the Flame of Orcus' rigid command structure and foreshadowing of the link between the Flame/Avatar and Orcus himself.