Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: Max on November 10, 2011, 03:43:04 AM
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Is the $5 pdf a full game or do I need Apocalypse World to play Dungeon World?
I've read a few reviews and actual play sessions and the game sounds very interesting. But there seems to be an issue with the rules in a few places. One of them is how to fight large groups of enemies. Another (in AW at least), was where one poster asked how do you do things like climb walls, or swim.
Thanks
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My opinion is you need the $5 PDF or AW. Trying to play the free version without the framework of the $5 PDF or AW would be challenging, especially if you haven't played something like this before.
Climbing and swimming this is not a problem. In AW these things are covered by the 'acting under fire' move. However, these sorts of games are more about people than just physical actions. In fact there is a game which looks humorously at why most RPG have detailed rules like this called 'Drowning and Falling'. So you probably won't need to make too many climbing and swimming rolls.
Large groups of monsters is no more of a problem than in regular D&D once you grok how it works.
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Ok thanks
How are such issues resolved in DW?
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Is the pdf of Dungeon World a finished 1st edtion type product, or is it a Beta type product? I ask because apparently there's an issue with the way XP are awarded. Also, the Paladin is a separate pdf, and you can only go as high as 5th level, and there's no 2nd or 4th level spells.
Dungeon World looks to be a great game/system and I would love to run this in the future - right now though it doesn't look as if it's a viable option.
What are the plans for Dungeon World in the future?
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H Max.
Whenever someone swims or climbs and it matters they would roll Defy Danger, with the danger being falling or drowning.
The full Dungeon World game comes out in 2012. I'd say there might be some changes to the game, and I know Sage and Adam were looking at XP so it may change. The XP system works, it is just that some people think it creates the wrong incentives in play and are suggesting alternatives. Because the game is being designed in an open way it seems like these are problems, but they are really just open discussions of better ways to do it and alternatives people are using. A lot of people, including me, are still happily playing the XP rules as written and having fun so feel free to try them before considering alternatives.
I think the DW versions as released are more like the D&D Red Box or Pathfinder Starter box. They are enought to get you started, and if you like it you can push on with the full rules next year.
Anyone with more detail feel free to chip in.
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Oh, forgot spells. I'm assuming you've played D&D before which is why you see the spells levels as missing, but there are not intended to be 2nd or 4th level spells. Spells are based around character level not a separate spell level. So the second level spells you used to get at third level are now called third level spells. Seems complicated at the start, but it is actually much simpler than the old D&D way for new players.
I've played much earlier versions of this game no problem and the rules are clearer now so I'd say it is definitely viable. However, there are some key approaches that are different to D&D that can make playing it challenging. For example, my D&D based assumptions of how combat initiative works made my first few sessions hard for me until I threw away some of my assumptions and got into it.
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Thank you Wightbred, you've answered my questions admirably, and I'm definitely looking to get the full game in 2012.
I'm also going to read up on the pdf DW I bought the other day - in between my Warhammer 1st ed campaign.
Happy days!
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Glad I could help. Come back to this forum if you have any questions while reading it. One of the great things about DW is the passionate and helpful people playing it (nd most of them are much more knowledgable than me).
A long time since I've played Warhammer 1e!
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Ok, a few more questions
Character Growth
* Can we expect more spells in the main book?
* How high will levelling go?
* Will there be Rangers?
* Other classes?
GMs
* Really, the GM never has to roll a dice all game?
* How much prep time do GMs have to invest?
The Future
* Any plans for future releases, a monster manual, a GM's screen, a few modules?
* What about a default setting?
Miscellaneous
* Could DW be used to run other detailed established settings, like Greyhawk for example? Or is it best at doing off the cuff make it up as you go along type settings?
* Should I print out the pdf I just purchased, or is there an update due out, how much life is in the current pdf version?
Thanks
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The designers Sage and Adam will need to answer some of these, but I'll do what I can as a fan.
Earlier versions had Rangers, more spells, and all the other main classes like Bards. I'm guessing level will be a least 10 and probably 20.
I do it with zero prep, but from reading other threads I think the norm is less than regular D&D. This is because lots of the action and ideas tends to come from cooperative play not just the GMs head.
Not rolling the dice as GM is the most amazing bit of this game because it changes the play dynamic. But it is also one of those things thats hard to grok at first. Think about it like this: only the PCs really matter, so instead of contested rolls the players just roll against a set difficulty number. As the GM you just foreshadow what will happen if they don't act to get the action started. So suddenly all the action is focused on the players and what they are going to do.
You could definitely do Greyhawk.
Can anyone help out with the rest and correct any mistakes I've made.
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Yup, ticks all the boxes again, thanks Wightbred.
I've just read on rpg.net, one player's opinion that DW does dungeon delves amazingly well, but it struggles with wilderness type adventures.
What's your opinon on this, can it do wilderness/city/town type adventures?
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Yup, ticks all the boxes again, thanks Wightbred.
I've just read on rpg.net, one player's opinion that DW does dungeon delves amazingly well, but it struggles with wilderness type adventures.
What's your opinon on this, can it do wilderness/city/town type adventures?
I think it can definitely do wilderness adventures, especially with the ranger involved. I also think city/town can be done, as long as you focus on "adventure" as the key term - I don't think it's built for, say, politics or intrigue or what-have-you.
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Ok, a few more questions
Character Growth
* Can we expect more spells in the main book?
- Totally.
* How high will levelling go?
- We're not sure quite yet, but likely 20. Ostensibly, at a point, you could just keep gaining levels, hit points and new moves until you're some kind of move-laden beast, but most games don't make it there, thankfully.
* Will there be Rangers?
- Absolutely.
* Other classes?
- That, too. At least the Cleric, Fighter, Thief, Wizard, Bard, Ranger and Paladin will be included but also maybe one or two more, depending on some factors.
GMs
* Really, the GM never has to roll a dice all game?
- Really. Honestly seriously never. Unless you just want to for fun. The game won't care, though.
* How much prep time do GMs have to invest?
- It depends, really. You can put a crap ton of effort into building the world, dungeon, town or setting if you want to - just make sure to leave some holes to explore with your players.
The Future
* Any plans for future releases, a monster manual, a GM's screen, a few modules?
- We're going to continually drip new content out to the Guild as we create it. We're on on a bit of a mini-class playbook kick right now. We just released three new ones in the form of Dungeon World Compendium 1: The Finer Things and you're likely to see more of that down the pipe as time rolls on.
There's also some VERY preliminary talk about what an "Advanced Dungeon World" might look like but, seriously, wait for the main game to come out first and then we'll talk fancy expansions.
* What about a default setting?
Probably no. I mean, there's some inherent setting-ness to the play books, but we're not likely to ever flat out say "this is the world that this game takes place in"
Miscellaneous
* Could DW be used to run other detailed established settings, like Greyhawk for example? Or is it best at doing off the cuff make it up as you go along type settings?
- Oh, totally. My favourite thing to do with DW one-shots is just retool an old D&D adventure. You can flavour stuff pretty easily with a little custom-move creating.
* Should I print out the pdf I just purchased, or is there an update due out, how much life is in the current pdf version?
- The Red Book will remain live and valid until we release Dungeon World. This means you've got a good solid three or four months at least ahead of you and our little red (or black and white) friend.
Thanks
- You're welcome!
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Well that's the best possible reply*
Thank you :D
* Scantily clad female Drow ninja strippers not withstanding of course.
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I've just read on rpg.net, one player's opinion that DW does dungeon delves amazingly well, but it struggles with wilderness type adventures.
What's your opinon on this, can it do wilderness/city/town type adventures?
G'day Max, and Welcome!
Yup, Adam has given you all the best answers, but I'd just like to pipe in and say that I've been using all sorts of locations for my adventures. If I need a custom move for any given setting, I love making them up! This is my favourite kind of prep, bar none. Custom moves make the game YOURS.
If you don't want to go to all that trouble, well the game is all about the narrative, the mechanics simply give you prompts, so...... If it feels like (in the fiction) that a character needs to make a move (to do it - do it) and none of the exisiting moves seem to fit, Defy Danger is a go-to move using any applicable stat. Works a treat every time.
For Instance, say your intrepid adventurers have emerged on the far side of the saw tooth mountains through a crumbling dwarven chamber, having escaped the ravening hordes of night-goblins under the mountain. After a bit of discerning realities by the Thief determining there is a nearby human settlement of ner'do'wells living in the ruins of an ancient city and subsequent spouting lore by the Wizard about the ruling cabal of wizards that hold sway over said town.... The Fighter goes with the resultant established fiction as they wander the mean streets and says they want to find their old merc comrade in the town to give them some succour. (the player plays a lot of Burning Wheel, and is rather keen on the Circles mechanic.)
Well well! This is gold! Say YES! (of course), the resultant NPC could be the source of all sorts of trouble and adventures! OK, so what do you do? Ask some questions of the fighter and determine what they are about. They say they saunter into the fighter's guild and look for their friend. This sounds like the ideal narrative space for a move to you, but really, which one exists? Discern Realities? Carouse? Parley? Sort of.
But if you suggest Defy Danger, the danger being that the fighter doesn't get what they want (getting succor from their friend - they should DEFINITELY find this NPC), using say CHA as the operating stat, gives you as GM LOTS of narrative options, especially on a 7-9....
So the player rolls +CHA and gets a 6.... Oops, but the thief aids successfully using their knowledge of the clandestine nature of the town. 7 it is. You ponder, an ugly choice making all sorts of sense to you. The fighter finds their old comrade, penniless, drunk and beset on all sides in a darkened alley by vicious loan sharks. They turn and leer snaggle-toothed. 'Fook Off, if you know what's good for you!'... Sure you can hook up with your old mate, but first you may have to deal with these bad fellas first.
All from Defy Danger on CHA. Awesome. Have fun with the game and let us know how it goes!
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Tomorrow night I'm going to wrap up a short wilderness campaign, and I ran a very well received Wilderness one-shot at Big Bad Con in October. So, yes, it can do Wilderness campaigns at least as well as the next game.
Over Christmas I'm planning to run another wilderness game, this one set in the Fighting Fantasy world of Titan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_%28world%29). Or maybe in Blacksand (http://fightingfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Port_Blacksand) if I can motivate myself to dig out the book from my closet.
It really handles low/no prep GMing well; my prefered style.
The XP system works fine as written. There are several alternative systems out there that perhaps work a little bit better, but that's just us fans tweaking a near perfect game.
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Fighting Fantasy + Dungeon World = AWESOMENESS!
I must get me some Provocative teasers from the world of fighting Fantasy.... Maps, brief descriptions of Locations and NPCs. All good DM prep.
The Blurb from the back of the books plus a few moves and monsters would make a great 'starter'. Oh yeah, the Forest of Doom....
Only the foolhardy would risk an encounter with the unknown perils that lurk in the murky depths of Darkwood Forest. Yet there is no alternative, for your quest is a desperate race against time to find the missing pieces of the legendary Hammer of Stonebridge — fashioned by Dwarfs to protect the villagers of Stonebridge against their ancient doom.
Wicked. Let us know how it goes!
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Sounds absolutely awesome!
Which 'xp system' would you say is the better option of all those currently doing the rounds?
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Which 'xp system' would you say is the better option of all those currently doing the rounds?
Hmmm. Well, I was using the standard highlight stats (as in AW), mixed with a homebrew hack of Awesome dice (from old school hack) but after reading Anarchangel's ideas on highlighting actions 'types' (as keys) rather than stats, I was sold. I think Sage and Adam may have a revision or two in the works also. So long as you remember to mark xp for everytime that the players encourage what they want to see in play through their characters's actions,it should work out.
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You can find links to alternate system that Ryan, Colin and I are playing withand why we prefer it to highlighted stats here (http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=2173.0). There's also some discussion of it on Story-Games.
I'm very keep to see what Sage and Adam come up with in the final version too.
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How goes the development, are we still on schedule for a spring/summer release?
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Earlier in this thread, I was told that levels will 'probably' go to 20, but I just read via email that character levels only go to 10th.
This is a major bummer for me, because I wanted to use DW to run all those classic d&d modules. That and I believe level 20 gives you much more in terms of character growth.
Is this true, levels only go to 10th?
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Yup, in the playbooks as they are. The finite amount of available advances sort of make this a natural 'name' level finishing point. But..... Prestige classes will most certainly arrive for additional compendium classes to expand your now rather powerful characters into. :)
Some of us die-hard fans have been creative in this area of the game as our long-term campaigns have developed, so have no fear that the game 'stops' at level 10!
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Good news
It would have been perfect if they'd had modelled the progression level rate as per the usual d&d progression.
But like you say, it's not insurmountable
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I agree. Fiddling with the progression rate will be easy. Only got three sessions? Then crank it down to just Level XP and watch them fly up. Want to play half a year? Then crank it up to 7 x Level.
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But hey, playing it's not a matter of earning XPs. You can reach level 10 and continue the adventure! On the other hand, it's fun to retire a character, or make up a good reason on why he's no more an adventurer—you know, he turned evil and will be the main antagonist of the next campaign. Or he growed old and in the next campaign will be the wise and gentle mentor of the PCs. Or he completed his quest for immortality and became a God. Maybe it would be good to have a chapter in the book about level 10 characters and what to do with them!
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Maybe it would be good to have a chapter in the book about level 10 characters and what to do with them!
I second that!
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I would like to see an Epic Level Dungeon World supplement covering levels 11 to 20!