Barf Forth Apocalyptica
barf forth apocalyptica => Apocalypse World => Topic started by: Allison on September 24, 2011, 09:40:49 AM
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I don't know if anyone else has observed this before (probably), but I just noticed that all angel stat lines have either Hard=0 or Hard+1, meaning that there's no such thing as an angel who's bad at violence (especially considering that they get two +1hard lines, meaning an angel will never be created who doesn't have an easy path to Hard+2 at the least).
This has been starting to bother me, because I've been playing an angel who's a 98-pound weakling, and a Hard of even =0, let alone with the potential for +2, is becoming more and more plainly absurd. But there's no way to have a Hard below =0 without going out of my way to get crippled, and that's just... well, crippling myself for no reason.
So I'm not sure what to do about this, or why it's this way at all. Any help?
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So I'm not sure what to do about this, or why it's this way at all. Any help?
Because Hard isn't just about being physically tough, it's also about being mentally and emotionally tough... they've seen a lot of stuff and it's toughened them in many ways.
When your 98lbs weakling Angel stares down a ganger trying to steal stock with a "Put that down or I'll show you your liver..." (Go Aggro) the ganger realizes the Angel means it...
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Perhaps I'm just an oddball, but I've never seen any relationship between what's often referred to as having been "emotionally hardened" and actually being any good at overpowering someone in a violent situation.
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Perhaps I'm just an oddball, but I've never seen any relationship between what's often referred to as having been "emotionally hardened" and actually being any good at overpowering someone in a violent situation.
Have you ever watched "Breaking Bad"? The main character is a withered, dying-of-cancer teacher... but you wouldn't mess with him in a violent situation, because the guy will not back down... if he's threatening you, he's going to go through with it regardless of consequences to himself and that is scary! He's fully dedicated to what he's doing and that emotional/mental intensity sees him through physically tough times.
Hard is also will... the drive to see things through... it's also meanness and hard-heartedness, etc, not just being big and buff and warlike.
Remember, you're playing in the fiction, to do it, do it.
So, if the 98lbs weakling Angel says to the above ganger, "Get out or I'll wrestle you to the ground and throw you out!", that's an attempt to Manipulate, because, fictionally, the PC can't actually back up that threat with a physical effect... heck, it might not even count as a manipulate, and the ganger might just laugh it off.
If the 98lbs weakling Angel instead says to the above ganger, "If you don't get out, I'm going to come over there and use this scalpel to slice off your balls." that is Going Aggro as the ganger will see that this little fucking twig has the will to come over there and do that... they aren't bluffing, you can see it in their eyes.
If that same Angel said, "I'm going to attack that whole gang with my scalpel, and claim the girl they have", the MC has every right to say, "You know, that's probably going to get you killed..." and modify the Seize By Force with a penalty or some other factor... as the fiction demands.
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You know, the twig might not be bluffing, but I hope that ganger is also kind of a weakling, otherwise she's going to be the one getting wrangled down--maybe getting a few cuts in first, but not where she was hoping.
Perhaps I'm just jaded, but I also make no conflation between willingness and ability. The former appears without the latter all the time, and vice-versa.
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You know, the twig might not be bluffing, but I hope that ganger is also kind of a weakling, otherwise she's going to be the one getting wrangled down--maybe getting a few cuts in first, but not where she was hoping.
Perhaps I'm just jaded, but I also make no conflation between willingness and ability. The former appears without the latter all the time, and vice-versa.
Sure, and that's were you look to the fiction to inform your choices and consequences...
That twig with the Hard+2 has both the will and the ability... as the situation allows!
(This has been a fun discussion, btw! *laugh* Really has me thinking.)
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Yeah, but I still haven't figured out what it is that prevents angels from being weaklings, or even means they're stronger than anyone else. I'm still not seeing a relationship between "I heal people" and "I'm good at hurting people." Or, for that matter, "I'm emotionally prepared to follow through on a threat of violence" and "I have any actual strength, skill, or other ability that allows me to physically follow through on a threat of violence."
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For me, the fact that Angels don't really have any cool Moves for combat, plus they have lousy weapons and armor, is what makes them realistic.
Angels are people with nerves of steel; this doesn't mean they aren't gonna get chewed up and spat out in a firefight, but it does mean they're willing to go to the mat to do what's gotta be done.
Battlebabes can pull aggro, Gunluggers can hit super-duper hard, and Choppers have a whole gang of dudes to fight for them.
Angels can mix it up, too; they just aren't able to do a lot or do it super well; like you said, they can't really back it up. Occasional spooky bursts of violence seem to be about all they can muster, but maybe that's enough sometimes.
And if you trade harm for harm, Angels are gonna go down fast, compared to someone better suited for combat. Does that help?
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Not really. Starting equipment is just starting equipment (except for things like angel kits, cars, workshops, and maybe FOBGs, but gunluggers of all classes need FOBGs the least, so for them it pales to little more than garnish). It's not like you can't just go buy 2-armour and a shotgun or smg or machete or whatever with a little jingle.
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I've never met a medic who couldn't effectively go aggro, ever.
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I've never met a medic who couldn't effectively go aggro, ever.
Were they going aggro in the AW sense, or were they manipulating with screams and glares? Because my angel may have done the latter.
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Interesting that go aggro is the move that seems to be being brought up here; seizing by force seems much more tied to physical prowess to me.
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I'm just saying! The medics I know, they'll never point a gun at you, but if they do, you cave and do what they want, or they shoot you.
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I'm just saying! The medics I know, they'll never point a gun at you, but if they do, you cave and do what they want, or they shoot you.
See, and this is probably where I ended up wandering off. I don't usually make the mental leap from violence to guns--when I picture violence, it's usually something much more muscle-powered. (It's also why I got snippy about the best fighter class being guns-associated, despite the fact that it's the class that needs those FOBGs the least.)
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As a point of realism, and having been in a few actual brawls myself, being big only kinda half counts. You have to be mean it and to want to fight.
Most people don't want to fight. Even the three guys twice my size who loudly talk about kicking the shit out of me when I leave the bar. Instead, I just spun on my heels and said, "If you wanna fucking go we can do this right here" and meant it.
As another, example, my best bud is shorter and skinnier then me but he's really, really really fucking hard and scrappy. He's a minority and basically grew-up in the neo-nazi center of Canada. I've seen him clean the floor with two guys literally twice his size. He's like 5'5 and 125lbs. I asked him how and he's just said that they didn't actual want to fight, just talk shit and shove a little bit, so he just punch them, and kicked out one of their knees.
I'm a very skinny guy. Either I don't fight or I lose. And I've lost enough times that my collar bones don't match. But I've won enough fights without fighting cause I meant it. And when a little dude means it, he's going all in, so either deal with it or cave.
The other point I'd like to make is that physical strength stops mattering the second any kind of weapon is involved. Knives especially. The effectiveness of knives and metal clubs makes someones' fists look like brittle soft little toys. Murdering a human being is likely with a single blow from a knife or a bat. Accidentally even.
And guns? Forget about it. Guns exist to murder human beings easily, effectively and quickly.
I'm with Vincent on this one: Medics, firefighters and emergence personnel of all kinds are the hardest ass motherfuckers. Their jobs is to save your life, but so help you god if you don't cooperate.
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I'm just saying! The medics I know, they'll never point a gun at you, but if they do, you cave and do what they want, or they shoot you.
See, and this is probably where I ended up wandering off. I don't usually make the mental leap from violence to guns--when I picture violence, it's usually something much more muscle-powered. (It's also why I got snippy about the best fighter class being guns-associated, despite the fact that it's the class that needs those FOBGs the least.)
Can't you just not roleplay your angel getting physical with people?
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Maybe there will be less of a disconnect if we look at what Hard does in the game? Most of the time rolling Hard means Going Aggro, where a higher Hard doesn't mean more damaging blows, or better accuracy. It means when you have a gun pointed at someone or a knife at their throat, they have to choose between doing what you want, and getting shot/cut. A higher hard means they are less likely to get away without you shooting them (the first two options on a 7-9) or to be able to placate you (the other three options). That's all about how emotionally hardened towards violence you are. And it's most of what Hard is used for.
It's not like Angels have to have a high Hard anyways, just the baseline. You can totally have a physically weak character who is no worse than average at following through on a threat of violence without straining credulity.
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OK, ctrail's response suddenly makes it clear to me what the disconnect between my experience and everyone else's is. In my experience, seize by force happens as much as going aggro, if not more, and I've seen as much unarmed combat in the game as armed.
Both of these are probably at least in part because my character in my other AW campaign is a nutcase who will willingly, even eagerly, attack thirty heavily armed raiders with her bare hands just because she totally told the owner of the establishment she'd try not to get any bullet holes in the wall (that, and getting her SMG would have involved taking a couple of moments to, y'know, go home and get it, and that's just inconvenient). Of course that's not the only thing, given that the MC in the game where I play the angel also does as much in the way of big firefights as intimate violence. This may have skewed my perspective a little, and in fairness, it does kind of colour what I imagine when I look at the Hard stat (at the very least, it has me imagining it in terms of ability to commit violence well rather than simply willingness to commit violence period).
Sadly the battlebabe's ice cold is not standard here, or else it would have fit the division much better (and sadly the system gives me virtually no incentive to get it--more of a disincentive, really--because I can just raise my Hard as high as my Cool instead, and save the precious cross-class move slot and be just as good at seizing by force).
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You might find this post interesting on the subject of Seizing by Force.
http://mightyatom.blogspot.com/2010/11/aw-seize-by-force-is-peripheral-move.html
There are a couple playbooks where I could see Seizing by Force getting used more (Gunlugger comes to mind) but yeah, like you say it's mostly Going Aggro with firearms more common than melee weapons.
Sadly the battlebabe's ice cold is not standard here, or else it would have fit the division much better (and sadly the system gives me virtually no incentive to get it--more of a disincentive, really--because I can just raise my Hard as high as my Cool instead, and save the precious cross-class move slot and be just as good at seizing by force).
I'm not sure what you mean here. What would it mean for Ice Cold to be the standard?
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It would mean that ability to go aggro and to seize by force are unrelated, except in the case of going aggro on PCs with whom her Hx is poorer than her Hard. The doc has good Cool (+2), so with Ice Cold, would go aggro at +2, but would not seize by force at +2--she's got steady nerves and the ovaries (OK, balls, whatev) to pull the trigger, but not so much ability to bring down an opponent who is actively fighting back.
But there'd be no point to doing that when I could just spend a couple of improvements to get Hard+2 instead, which is going to happen eventually anyway if the game goes on long enough to start filling out the angel's improvement list.
Also, in our game, we've never had the problem that article describes with seize by force. We use it by consequences, like Christian Griffen there does--if you're getting violent with someone who is immediately prepared to get violent back, or who is already getting violent with you, it's seize by force. As an example, when the doctor was attacked in her surgery by a violent woman over twice her size intent on infecting her with a horrible disease (no, it wasn't AIDS, ffs), the doc pulled her gun and went aggro first, of course--she failed, and then she got pinned and then the fight went right to seizing by force (which the doc somehow managed to succeed at, though I waived inflicting harm because obviously the doc would have her hands full just resisting, forget actually injuring someone that big with her bare hands, and doing that would be a case of using the rules in a way that makes no goddamn sense).
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Interesting Discussion!
Allison, I am an intensive care paramedic in the real world and have been for many years. I would have to say that of my colleagues, few of us are truly HARD. Jaded, burnt-out, cynical maybe, as well as compassionate, empathic and giving, but hard? Hmmmm. That said, the 'badge' gives somewhat some sort of +1 forward to any need to manipulate or go aggro.
If I want something bad enough, I would suggest that manipulating is far and away the first choice as a medic. Going aggro only, ONLY if life and limb were threatened.
So I get your dilemma, but I also see it as a characteristic of Angels in Apocalypse world, and I like that. So if your vision is compromised on how you 'see' your Angel, work toward a custom stat block.
'Hey MC, I would rather a -1 Hard and a +1 Hot for my Angel and here's why.....'
I'd totally go with your justification. I would also always always always put you in a hard spot where you NEED to go aggro rather than seduce to wriggle free, but thems the breaks! :)
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Oh, I'm fine with going aggro. You can certainly stick ice cold in the improvement line somewhere, as long as the arrangement has me doing something other than kicking my own ass just to kick my own ass (switching one of the +1hard improvements into "get the ice cold move" would be, sadly), considering good Cool makes perfect sense and being willing to pull the trigger fits the character just fine. But nothing in particular suggests to me a doctor would be any better at seizing by force.
Her starting line was Cool+1, Hard=0, Hot+1, Sharp+2, Weird-1 (now Cool+2 and Sharp+3). So perhaps changing one +1hard improvement into a +1hot improvement, which for some bizarre reason, the angel lacks, or dropping a point of Hard from the statline for a point of Weird (since dropping Hard by one point wouldn't be enough to improve her Hot to +2, because for some reason you have to pay extra to gimp yourself with a second +2 right out of the gate), or both.
That said, thank you; I'm glad that an actual medical professional has weighed in to point out that the "hardening" experienced in the medical profession is not really the same kind of Hard used in AW.
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No Worries! :)
I like the -1 Hard, +1 Hot Compromise too.
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As a medic in the Royal Navy I can safely say that not all medics in real life would have a high Hard rating in AW!
The combat Medics in the Royal Marines though have definetly taken the 2 Hard advances!
Most experienced medics I have met, civilian or military, generally are good at not taking shit from anybody. Especially when a patient is involved.
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Also, makes sense in the context of the Apocalypse World. Death is all around, and someone who's able to stich people back on their feet would be a very desirable ressource. The Angel being independant in this context means they have the balls and the means to say no to any hardholder or warlord that tells them to work for them.
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Also, makes sense in the context of the Apocalypse World. Death is all around, and someone who's able to stich people back on their feet would be a very desirable ressource. The Angel being independant in this context means they have the balls and the means to say no to any hardholder or warlord that tells them to work for them.
The playbook actually makes no particular insinuation that the character isn't in the employ, willing or otherwise, of some hardholder or warlord. (Also, dare I say that the doctor is not someone you want to piss off regardless of their Hard, but.)
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Okay, I might be defending my initial superficial understanding of the Angel here but since they're PC material, they're de facto independant unless they choose not to be.
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Okay, I might be defending my initial superficial understanding of the Angel here but since they're PC material, they're de facto independant unless they choose not to be.
Oh, of course. But angels aren't the only people in demand. Consider the skinner, savvyhead, and brainer, all of whom are precious, precious people, yet can have quite shitty Hard.
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Good point, though they all have other means to secure their independance. They're all about Weird after all, and Weird scare people.