Barf Forth Apocalyptica
barf forth apocalyptica => Apocalypse World => Topic started by: urzae on September 16, 2011, 05:59:50 PM
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I know at least two members of my group look at these boards, so I hope I won’t get flak for posting, but I’m really looking for suggestions. Basically I am dissatisfied and not sure how to proceed.
A little background is in order. My first character I really did like. He was a slightly vindictive, but very overprotective of his followers, Hocus. I came primarily in conflict with one member of the group because he had threatened me and hurt one of my followers over something trivial. Ultimately after another threat to the Hocus’s followers the hocus freaked that character out (using weird), and his companion, which caused them to retaliate and kill him and his followers.
Next character was very short since it was a Battlebabe who unlike the Hocus was very violent. After dealing with an uppity guard and looking for anyone else to talk to (which there wasn’t anyone who wasn’t dying of a plague) he threatened the guard to get some information. The guard told him he wouldn’t tell him who was in charge and the battle babe attacked. Only to be immediately jumped by 5+ heavily armored guards who showed up out of nowhere and proceeded to be knocked out / captured and left to die (however further attacks on guards since then haven’t caused anywhere near the response by the guards). I had chance to salvage the character but without any gear I was apathetic to the idea.
So in order to keep a character around for more than 2 sessions I decided to go a more passive way. I brought in a skinner. Now, while the skinner hasn’t really ticked off any of the players or the NPCs, I am frustrated by my lack of exp gain. In two and a half session I haven’t even gained a single “level”. Last session one of the players leveled and brought in a new character. This character, in like 20 minutes, had already gained their fifth bubble of exp.
When I said how I felt that I was stagnant and don’t have many options, the GM and the other players blamed me for not doing more. They say that I should try to be manipulating every NPC I come across even though you need some sort of leverage to manipulate, something I don’t have. Or instead of manipulating, seducing, and I really didn’t want to play a slutty character. The only other stat I have ever had highlighted is cool and I need to get In a fight to use that, which I am hesitant to try, since every time I’ve actually tried to fight on any of my characters I’ve nearly died or have died.
Should I just continue at my slow exp rate, and suck it up? Or should I try to be more aggressive like my last two characters risk getting killed, again, and having to start all over. I do like meeting up with them for the weekly game, but it seems with each session I’m having less fun.
Help?
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Can you describe how you were jumped by the guards in more detail? Did you roll a Miss and then the MC's move was to separate you? I'm not understanding the bit about salvaging the character without gear. I'd be happy to play a battlebabe who was out to get the fucks who stole my gear. My last BB liked to walk naked through battlefields anyway, and I'm pretty sure I could figure out a way to score me a blade or convince the chopper to have his gang put the hurt on them for me.
Skinners are all about seducing and manipulating people. Of course, my Skinner is covered in scars from when Grievous drenched her in burning gasoline. So, that doesn't always work out as planned.
I'm not sure if the Skinner is a good fit if manipulating and Seducing people isn't your bag. Also, playing it safe in AW is never going to be fun. So don't do that. It does seem, however, that there is a dynamic at your table that isnt working yet.
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I'd second noclue's comment that a Battlebabe without her gear is still pretty effective.
I can give you some advice on how to get experience more quickly as a Skinner, but the fact that you had two character deaths in quick succession and some other comments you made make me wonder if there aren't more serious issues with your table dynamics. I don't know your situation well enough to give specific advice but I'd make sure to talk to the other players about your frustration and make sure there aren't some unresolved issues.
As for using Manipulation, my first question would be what does your Skinner want? If you have an goal you are pushing towards you'll naturally find a lot of opportunities to manipulate characters to support that agenda. You mentioned that you were having a hard time finding leverage to use, I recommend reading other characters and asking what they want you to do or what you'd need to do to get them to do what you want, that may give you ideas for forms of leverage you didn't even realize you had.
What moves did you take? If you have Artful and Gracious, or Hypnotic, those are two more ways to roll Hot, the first of which is very easy to arrange.
I disagree with your statement that you need to get into fights to roll Cool, you act under fire any time you try to accomplish something while exposed to risk, which can include stealthy actions or maybe physically risky behavior like scaling a wall or walking on perilous ground. It can still be more challenging to arrange for Cool rolls than some other stats, but it may help if you keep in mind that it comes up in many risky situations outside of combat.
Hopefully that's helpful, and if you tell me more about your characters moves and goals I might be able to give some more concrete suggestions later.
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Things are definitely wonky with the way everyone's looking at the game. After the guards took your stuff (a perfectly good hard move if you rolled a miss) did theMC turn to you and ask "what do you do?" Is the MC a fan of your character and playing to find out?
If that happened to Beastie I know what she'd do. Find one of them alone and bash his head in with a rock. Now I got me a gun. plus, the chopper has a space he wants filled on the back of his bike and that hocus has it out for the hardholder. That looks like an opportunity to recruit allies and trade my services for a weapon to me. Worst case, one murder by a BB is worth one barter. Im sure I know someone who's looking to off someone in Apocalypse World.
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On the battlebabe:
The way i remember the guard fight i rolled a sucess (10+) to try to kill him (with my blade already to his neck). He apprently was heavly armored which i dident know, becuse i forgot to ask. Then he got a shot off and a sniper tower I dident know about either, again I dident ask since they where never mentioned, fired upon me. Next round I tried to finish the downed guard off, got a partial sucess, killed him and thats when i got jumped. When i attempted to look for a way out of there using sharp I failed and was hit for five damage and knocked out.
After i awoke i was at their boss, who i told i was looking for work as an assassin. He wouldent hear about it and i was hauled away by 2+ guys (sans everthing i had) to be hung up and left to rot. When i tried to escape i failed, again. After loosing everthing, suffering damage, making a enemy of the most powerful hardholder npc in the first 30 minutes, and being hung by my hands over a gate out of the city; i just figured i couldent play the aggressive guy that i wanted to, so thats why i gave up on him.
On the skinner:
I do have Artful and Gracious, which i took singing as my art, but to my mind there hasen't been many chances for me to use it (ive even looked for work but couldent find any). Reading peaple is something i should have been doing to look for manipulation, but i guess i spaced that.
As far as motivation of the skinner i was guess thats something ive been lacking. Ive just been trying to get along with the other characters while looking for work to earn barter. In my mind the skinner is looking for potential allies/resources to help protect her since she cant fight very well.
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The thing is that you can be aggressive with your moves without being violent, and it's clear that violence isn't going to work because of the way your MC is running the game. Is it possible that s/he has some animus toward you? Or is this just some kind of misunderstanding?
I suggest that you ask people to highlight other stats. It isn't really cool for people to highlight your cool if it's obvious that you're rarely in a situation to use it, so point that out and be like, 'why not highlight my sharp or weird instead?'
Sharp and weird, once you have them highlighted, are great for getting exp because you can read situations and people till the cows come home. Opening your brain is similarly great.
Also don't forget that you can manipulate with barter, which as a skinner you do start with a little of. Artful & Gracious can net you more resources (in the form of barter, information, favors) to use as leverage. Can you get the Operator's move and some gigs?
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The way i remember the guard fight i rolled a sucess (10+) to try to kill him (with my blade already to his neck). He apprently was heavly armored which i dident know, becuse i forgot to ask. Then he got a shot off and a sniper tower I dident know about either, again I dident ask since they where never mentioned, fired upon me. Next round I tried to finish the downed guard off, got a partial sucess, killed him and thats when i got jumped. When i attempted to look for a way out of there using sharp I failed and was hit for five damage and knocked out.
If this is how it happened it seems your MC is either cheating or hasn´t read the rules.
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OK. Wait...
The way i remember the guard fight i rolled a sucess (10+) to try to kill him (with my blade already to his neck).
So, you had your knife to this guy's throat. The MC didn't name him? Tsk, Tsk. First mistake.
Did you want something from him? Or were you just killing him? That's the first question. If you were like "I put my knife to his throat and back him the fuck down or I slice him." That's a move (Going Agro. On a 10+, they have to choose: force your hand and suck it up, or cave and do what you want.)
If you were just "I'm a cut this dude. I fucking open his throat." The MC's first thought should be whether that's even a move. He's got his NPC in the Crosshair's right? Maybe the guard is bleeding out at your feet when the sniper in the tower fires.
He apprently was heavly armored which i dident know, because i forgot to ask.
It's not about whether you ask. The MC should be making apocalypse world seem real by telling you shit and inventing shit. The guard has armor fits the fiction. You're not going to see everything or know everything ahead of time. But, that's not really important. Is the guard in the MC's crosshairs? Is he thinking all the time about killing off his own NPCs, or is he invested in his NPCs rather than the PCs of whom he should be a fan? That's the issue. Why not have the guard dead and then make his next move?
So, let's give the MC the benefit of the doubt. He's a fan of your character and he wants to make your life interesting. His guard is just a tool that's he's kept alive for a bit. He has some options like offer you a choice. "You can kill this guard but you're acting under fire, because they've got a sniper in this big tower. You hear a ping as a bullet ricochets off the rock at your feet. What do you do?" That's a move.
Then he got a shot off and a sniper tower I dident know about either, again I dident ask since they where never mentioned, fired upon me.
What does "then he got a shot off" mean? The MC doesn't roll dice, so either the MC says "he takes a shot and misses you" or "He takes a shot. That's 2 harm to you."
Again, you don't have to know about shit like the tower. If the MC is making apocalypse world seem real and responding with fuckery and intermittent reward, a sniper tower is perfectly within reason. He shouldn't be dealing harm here, you rolled a 10+ but he could definitely have a sniper in the tower.
got a partial sucess, killed him and thats when i got jumped.
There aren't any rounds in AW. You've got the wounded guard bleeding at your feet and the sniper has just fired at you. The MC says "What do you do?" If you say I'm going to finish off this wounded guard," it's a valid MC move to say something like "You can kill him, but you're going to be acting under fire because of the five guards that are running out of the tower." Or the MC could be thinking, that's Seizing by Force (On a 7–9, choose 2:
• you take definite hold of it
• you suffer little harm
• you inflict terrible harm
• you impress, dismay or frighten your enemy)"
Did the MC offer you the choices? Or did he just deal harm? You didn't roll a miss, so the MC shouldn't be making a harm move here. But if you don't choose "suffer little harm" he can totally deal harm as established. And he's got dudes and snipers established.
When i attempted to look for a way out of there using sharp I failed and was hit for five damage and knocked out.
If that roll was a Miss, the MC can make a move, as hard a move as he likes. Deal harm as established (he's got dudes and snipers established).
After i awoke i was at their boss, who i told i was looking for work as an assassin. He wouldent hear about it and i was hauled away by 2+ guys (sans everthing i had) to be hung up and left to rot.
The MC is definitely not a fan of this PC. Why put you in front of the boss who is unresponsive and then haul you away from the boss if not to belittle you?
When i tried to escape i failed, again.
I don't even know what this means. You do something to escape. The MC asks you to roll. You roll a miss and the MC makes some kind of move and asks "What do you do?"
After loosing everthing, suffering damage, making a enemy of the most powerful hardholder npc in the first 30 minutes, and being hung by my hands over a gate out of the city; i just figured i couldent play the aggressive guy that i wanted to, so thats why i gave up on him.
Play with better MCs.
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I have a hypothetical question... if you are attempting to make the world seem real and there is a Hardholder with a big gang (apparently) and snipers, where do you draw the line between being a fan of the PCs and penalizing them for bad choices.
If this Battlebabe, with no relation to the Hold or the holder, just walks in and starts executing guards... I'm not sure how play should have resolved if there were misses at inopportune times.
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Well...
Making AW seem real does not mean making it realistic.
Fuckery does not mean fuck over.
And playing to find out means you don't have it in your head that the hardholder can't lose. What happens when Mad Max opens up in the middle of Town? Absolutely fucking anything happens.
The MC establishes situation and asks. If the battlebabe's choice is to hell with the consequences they can deal with the consequences. What you don't do is go from killing a guard to jumped by 5 dudes captured and stripped naked and ridiculed without the Battlebabe rolling a miss. The OP's Battlebabe rolled a 10+ followed by a 7-9.
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The MC establishes situation and asks. If the battlebabe's choice is to hell with the consequences they can deal with the consequences. What you don't do is go from killing a guard to jumped by 5 dudes captured and stripped naked and ridiculed without the Battlebabe rolling a miss. The OP's Battlebabe rolled a 10+ followed by a 7-9.
Understood. However, repeated Misses and making poor choices could lead to a very quick and grisly fate.
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I have a hypothetical question... if you are attempting to make the world seem real and there is a Hardholder with a big gang (apparently) and snipers, where do you draw the line between being a fan of the PCs and penalizing them for bad choices.
Why, exactly, do you want to penalize your PCs for bad choices? Bad choices are awesome and lead to all kinds of excitement!
It’s not, for instance, your agenda to make the players lose, or to deny them what they want, or to punish them,
or to control them,...
If people are making bad choices then the world will deform in response to those choices. You're absolutely right that when a battlebabe walks into that situation, if they blow a roll, they're going to be in the shit -- but shit's not permanent in Apocalypse World, and battlebabes are great at acting under fire.
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On the skinner:
I do have Artful and Gracious, which i took singing as my art, but to my mind there hasen't been many chances for me to use it (ive even looked for work but couldent find any).
I'm sorry. That statement makes no sense. You use it when you want something. You use it when you want everyone's eyes on you and you alone because you're the fucking skinner.
Example: Ambergrease and his gang are across the ravine, threatening Hatchet City from their fortification. October doesn't know which side she's on, but she knows whichever one it is, she's going to be on the winning side. She steps out in full view and starts to strip. Everyone's eyes are riveted to her (I rolled 10+). Amber grease opens his gate to her gives her Kip to take along for my very own, and also with a message to the hardholder (this person must meet me. This person must have my services. This person gives me a gift.)
As far as motivation of the skinner i was guess thats something ive been lacking
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It won't work without it.
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Understood. However, repeated Misses and making poor choices could lead to a very quick and grisly fate.
Sure. Or not. MCs have moves like capture you, offer you a worse choice, take away your stuff. They can also deal harm. Things are going to get interesting that's for sure.
@pigeon is wise.
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I do have Artful and Gracious, which i took singing as my art, but to my mind there hasen't been many chances for me to use it (ive even looked for work but couldent find any).
I agree with noclue, that makes no sense to say you can't use that move because you can't find work. You can use that move to get work. Walk up to a person you want to hire you, and sing. Choose "this person must have my services". Congratulations, that was your audition and you're hired! Alternately, cut out the middle man and just sing in the presence of someone who someone wealthy and choose "this person must give me a gift."
As far as motivation of the skinner i was guess thats something ive been lacking. Ive just been trying to get along with the other characters while looking for work to earn barter. In my mind the skinner is looking for potential allies/resources to help protect her since she cant fight very well.
In the rulebook there is advice for each character, and a warning. For the Skinner it is "Warning: skinner have the tools, but unlike hardholders, operators, and hocuses, they don't have a steady influx of motivation. You'll have most fun if you can roll your own."
As for the goals you are working on, as I mentioned above you can get work, or get barter directly, by singing in the presence of those who can provide it. If you are looking for more resources and allies, consider using that move for gifts, but also to make people fall in love with you.
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That's a great point about the skinner. For the record, here's the warning about the Battlebabe, which also seems apt.
Warning: you might find that you're better at making trouble than getting out of it. If you want to play the baddest ass, play a gunlugger instead
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Well I had this long thought out response to this. Spent like 40 minutes typing it and I believe the Psychic Maelstrom got a hold of it cause it has disappeared. So here goes a quicker response...
I am the MC for this campaign. Most of the players have only played D&D & were true Hack & Slash players, relying heavily to the tracks that I railroaded them with. We all saw a chance to break away from the rails and learn something new here with AW.
The Third, The Hocus, was one of my favorite characters. I specifically changed fiction that was established and made the world feel less real so that The Third didn't die when he dug himself a hole so deep that two PC's ended up attacking him. Spent a week trying how to come up with fiction to explain his disappearance and reapperance just for The Third's player to give up on The Third at the end of the session.
Quitus came into town got himself in trouble and couldn't figure out how to get himself out of trouble he put himself into by either making bad choices, not using moves he could have used, and not using chances given him by me to get out of the situation, on top of insulting the largest holder in the area. Instead of playing it out and see where Quitus story would go, his player gave up on him.
Now the newest character Pluto, The Skinner, has done nothing! She has taken a couple of chances to manipulate the Chopper and one other NPC but for the most part has attempted multiple times to spam Artful and Gracious when the fiction truly doesn't allow for it. I have multiple times asked Pluto what are you doing to which the answer was nothing really.
I have established that we should play all these as real people. That when you make bad decisions bad things happen. The bad may not happen right now but it will happen. Also, I took this as a chance to have the players provide narrative to the game other than relying on me to give them everything. Try to have them see me as an MC and not a DM. So when the PC's look to me to move the story forward cause they can't or won't move the story forward. I make a move from the book or from one of my fronts. A lot of the times they are HARD moves. As I understand it the players have enjoyed this. It has for the first time in a while allowed them to go tell stories about their characters and the game sessions as if they were watching a tv show or movie rather.
I like having The Third/Quitus/Pluto's player at the table. However, if he is not enjoying it or if he believes I am a bad MC he is welcomed to leave or start his own gaming group. If you want to stay then bring narrative to the story, to do something do it. If you want to perform explain what you are doing. If you want to seduce someone explain how you are seducing them! I should be able to figure out that you are doing a move with out you actually saying the move's name.
Also, know that every problem cannot be solved with a gun or a knife. That you can't demand, insult, and force people to do things over and over again with out some consequences occurring. And just cause things look bad now doesn't mean that it will be like that all the time.
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The thing is that you can be aggressive with your moves without being violent, and it's clear that violence isn't going to work because of the way your MC is running the game. Is it possible that s/he has some animus toward you? Or is this just some kind of misunderstanding?
This is what everyone at the table has tried explaining to him. You can be aggressive without being violent, or insulting, or etc... Violence solves some problems sometimes but alot of times it's just going to get you in trouble. No animus, I have tried to protect his characters more than I have others alot of times.
Also don't forget that you can manipulate with barter, which as a skinner you do start with a little of. Artful & Gracious can net you more resources (in the form of barter, information, favors) to use as leverage. Can you get the Operator's move and some gigs?
This is something I just noticed from reading this post. Urzae seemed to be min/maxing the crap out of these characters from the start. While I have no problem with this you are only focusing on one or two moves and forgetting that you have other tools that you could be using. Just cause you have a stat highlighted doesn't mean you can't use another move that may get you in a better position to use a highlighted stat.
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If this is how it happened it seems your MC is either cheating or hasn´t read the rules.
Or the third choice he isn't remembering the situation correctly. I can ensure you if had to "cheat" it was to his benefit. I have read the rules forwards and backwards and when necessary talked with Lumpley and other MC's on certain aspects of the rule book.
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The MC establishes situation and asks. If the battlebabe's choice is to hell with the consequences they can deal with the consequences. What you don't do is go from killing a guard to jumped by 5 dudes captured and stripped naked and ridiculed without the Battlebabe rolling a miss. The OP's Battlebabe rolled a 10+ followed by a 7-9.
And each junction of escalation (from fighting the guard -> Shots fired at him -> 5 Guards approaching you -> Being brought to The Mouth of Tiki -> Being brought to gate naked) was either due to him escalating it to the next level through fiction or him failing his roll or sometimes both.
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Okay, that's very different from what was presented. I'm back to there's a dynamic at the table that isn't working. The OP's descriptions of play paint a picture of an MC who is not making moves and not offering choices to the player and arbitrarily punishing the PC. Monte, your rendition suggests a player who really doesn't get the fact that they don't have plot immunity because they're a PC and their choices will lead to unexpected consequences and getting what you want involves risk in AW.
Expectations appear to be out of whack. How are he other players doing?
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Expectations appear to be out of whack. How are he other players doing?
The other players are doing fine. Some have learned that when you do "stupid" stuff bad things happen. The Gunlugger that loves using Open your mind to the Psychic Mealstrom, has learned that if she rolls bad she is going on a bad trip that may lead to "bad" things. The Angel has learned that "Damn it Jim you are a healer not an action hero!" when she decided to jump from vehicle to another and got ran over a bus. The chopper has learned that his pack won't follow him blindly into the fray. That he will do things he doesn't want to do to keep his gang together. The newest Brainer has learned messing with peoples heads can lead to some real aggressive things happening to them. But in the end each of them has taken that and made it part of their character and shaped their fiction/story to have the characters grow.
The other players go visit friends and tell stories about there characters because they are that invested in them and the story that is developing. They seem to work with me to tell a story rather than seeing me as an adversary. (That make sense?)
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Totally.
Has Urzae read the MC's play book?
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Also, can we discuss specifics for a bit? The Battlebabe started things off by attacking the guard and rolled a 10+. what move was that?
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To tell you the truth this was weeks ago and I am not so sure the Battlebabe rolled a 10+. As for what move, it was a straight Go Aggro (as a matter of fact I am leaning towards he didn't roll a 10+ since it was a Hard move), "Take me to Tiki or I'll rip your head from your shoulders".
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One thing that I think might be relevant that people haven't mentioned yet is mistakes and corrections. If the MC says (for example) "ok - you attack the guy and then the sniper tower shoots you - take 3 harm", it's perfectly ok for you to say "I hadn't realized there was a sniper tower here - instead I'm going to ...". It's something that everyone does, but I like that it's written out explicitly in AW. Characters are assumed to be aware of their surroundings and the possible outcomes of different courses of actions even if their player hasn't explicitly asked about things.
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To tell you the truth this was weeks ago and I am not so sure the Battlebabe rolled a 10+. As for what move, it was a straight Go Aggro (as a matter of fact I am leaning towards he didn't roll a 10+ since it was a Hard move), "Take me to Tiki or I'll rip your head from your shoulders".
Well, even on a 10+ your NPC can force their hand and suck it up, which might end up with a wounded guard. I'm not sure I would have used armor if the knife was at the dude's throat, but that's a minor nit.
The sniper tower isn't a hard move yet. But then the PC goes to finish off the guard and rolls a partial success. Did he roll Go Agro again? It's not about Tiki any more, it's about killing the guard. So it's Acting Under Fire? And you gave the BB a worse outcome by having the 5 guys knock her out and capture her? Or did you have them deal harm?
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The sniper tower isn't a hard move yet. But then the PC goes to finish off the guard and rolls a partial success. Did he roll Go Agro again? It's not about Tiki any more, it's about killing the guard. So it's Acting Under Fire? And you gave the BB a worse outcome by having the 5 guys knock her out and capture her? Or did you have them deal harm?
Once again this was weeks ago so I am not sure 100% of everything that happened, this being one of the things that is fuzzy.
As I remembered it when he killed off guard the guard in the tower shot at him. (No harm done just enough to scare him.) Which set off the warning to other guards in the area and basically gave Quitus a warning that future badness was about to occur. Giving him the choice of finish off the guy and possibly run into any of Tiki's Guards or find a way out. He chose to finish of the guy, which by then the reinforcements were seen down the street. He again had the chance to get out of there or attack. He choose to Seize by Force by attacking the advancing guards. He failed. Tiki has a welled armed gang. They were a small gang at the time vs a guy. He ended up getting hit with 4 harm. Dealing some back. With his harm roll, not sure what he rolled but, instead of sending 4 harm into him, I traded some to knock him out. The guards brought him to The Mouth of Tiki. That turned into Quitus insulting The Mouth and being strung up as "the new guard of the west gate."
Once again sorry if vague or doesn't answer all your questions but again this was many sessions ago.
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Wow, this kinda took off, didn't it?
I'm one of the other players, and I considered chiming in earlier to fill in some details that Urzae glossed over. I decided not to, but looking at it now that might have been the wrong decision.
Anywho, probably the most significant bit that hasn't been spelled out is exactly how Urzae was handling Quitus' entrance into Par...
He strolls in through one of the main gates...
Declares that he was walking up to the first person he saw...
Turned out it was a sick townsperson (there's a plague that's wiping out this half of town)...
So Quitus punches the fellow in the throat, killing him...
Then declares that he's moving on to the first person he sees who isn't sick...
Asks this guy if there's any work to be had...
Then specifies that he's looking for assassin work...
The guy shrugs and says that there's been a farmers revolt in town, could be some work there...
Quitus offers no incentive for the guy to stick around or give more info, so the guy starts to walk off...
Quitus asks again about other work, but the guy keeps walking...
Urzae asks if the guy's still close enough to attack and goes for the kill...
Drops the guy to the ground in really bad shape, but gets the attention of surrounding guards (he is still in the vicinity of one of the main gates of the largest holding in the area)...
Bullets start peppering the ground around him...
MC lets him know that he's got time to move for cover or finish the guy, but not both...
Quitus elects to merc the downed guard, then turns to face the others...
Takes a good chunk of harm and gets knocked out...
So yeah, that was the "uppity" guard he ran across.
And with the whole "first person I see" bit and no attempt to interact with anyone beyond "hey, I'm looking for this" and "you die now," I didn't see the situation as the MC witholding information to screw Urzae over. On the contrary, I saw Urzae being so recklessly aggressive and willfully oblivious to anything beyond getting what he wanted by force, that it seemed like Urzae was trying to screw Urzae over.
But yeah, those are some key details that didn't get fully explained.
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Sigh... i knew this would turn out badly : /
With the hocus I stopped playing the 3rd becuse at the end of the next session i had no allies left at the table and i dident want to play a villian for the entire group.
As far as the comment about "trying to spam Artful and Gracious" i only started that after the chopper started using the skill with almost every npc interaction since he picked it up.
And as using only highlited stats, everyone at the table does that. Heck the angel lept from a car needlessly just for the exp bubble. I dont see how i am "min/maxing" if i want to try to get more options by leveling up.
With the aggressive comment, i admit the battlebabe was viloent, but not much more than other characters. The driver plows though everthing. The gunlugger blows up everthing. The chopper wants to rule it all. The only time the hocus ever pulled a gun is when he was staring down fruitlessly by 2 player character tanks. ive been trying to play the skinner more passivly simply becuse my more "aggressive " characters ended up getting shredded.
As far as the entrence into town by the battlebabe this is how it happened (as i remember it). I go into town and the guard isint being any help suggesting work. So i then ask if there is anyone else there. There are a bunch of sick peaple in the streets. i try to talk to one and he tried to vomit on me. So i stopped him (yes by killing him since i was playing an assassin) and went back to the guard. He still wasent telling me where to go and i used "go argo". the guard, when pressed with a blade to his neck still wouldent tell me where to go chose to suck it up.
It is then when i did attack him. I dealt 2 damage after my swing and he was on the ground. however when i swung he got a shot off wildly which alerted the sniper tower. then i try to finish him off while being shot by the tower. thats when the group of guards came out of nowhere (since they where not in sight a few moments ago when i was looking for someone to talk to). So now i rolled sharp, to try to find a way out and fail, getting shot to heck and knocked out. And when i attempted to break free i was knocked out, to wake up already tied up and hanging.
But ultimatly i understand why the battlebabe got killed. i tried to be to agressive without any backup. I mean since then the players have basically started a war with that hardholder killing many guards, though they havent got the resistance i encountered as the assassin.
I understand the hocus had problems becuse he put his followers before the group. So know im trying not to be aggressive and not to hurt another player so they wont gang up and kill me.
I dont want to leave the group, nor do i belive it's a bad game. its ... just i know am frustrated becuse i feel that i am falling behind the other characters. And when it does come to my actions i cant think of anything to do when it happens or that something horrible is going to happen if i try to reach out and do something.
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But ultimatly i understand why the battlebabe got killed. i tried to be to agressive without any backup
Interesting comment. Your battlebabe wasnt actually killed.
and you ended up where you did because you chose to keep going despite very apparent and escalating danger. I'm curious why? what was so important about killing that guard that you stood there under that tower rather than getting under cover? and how did you expect it would go down? because your battlebabe succeeded. you said I'm killing this guard, and that guard was killed but good.
to me your battlebabe became an engaging character the moment they strung you up. before it was all, generic bad assery. but after that, i want to know what you're gonna do. what you really want. and now you have needs. you need an angel. you need a weapon. you need friends with big guns.
contrast that with your skinner who wants nothing and needs nothing special. The good news is you have an opportunity to make the skinner into someone interesting. But if you want xp you're going to have to figure out what that skinner wants and what you're gonna do to get it, and then go get it.
And I'm not sure getting everyone's opinions out in the open needs to be a bad thing.you're all obviously experiencing it differently and it's already effecting the game.
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You guys need to talk with one another about your assumptions and goals for the game and how to discuss, in-game, when things are happening that are leading to unfun events for somebody. (edit: And how to head off those unfun events before they actually happen.)
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Ok, killed was not the right word. But a character so messed up before even meeting any other character just mean a quick death and wouldent be any fun (to me).
I wanted to be a badass like the gunlugger who, when she sees someone in the way launches a grenade and slaughters everything in her path. But insead the battlebabe got stomped all over.
Honestly i dont are that much about the battlebabe incident. I tried something and i failed.
I was just seeking advice on how to be a more effective skinner without trying to rock the boat. It seems that many posters say to be more adventerous, which i guess i will try to do and hope it wont end badly.
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I was just seeking advice on how to be a more effective skinner without trying to rock the boat. It seems that many posters say to be more adventerous, which i guess i will try to do and hope it wont end badly.
I really recommend you talking things through with your group to make sure you are on the same page, so you can know that it won't end badly.
You guys need to talk with one another about your assumptions and goals for the game and how to discuss, in-game, when things are happening that are leading to unfun events for somebody. (edit: And how to head off those unfun events before they actually happen.)
+1
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If this is how it happened it seems your MC is either cheating or hasn´t read the rules.
Or the third choice he isn't remembering the situation correctly. I can ensure you if had to "cheat" it was to his benefit. I have read the rules forwards and backwards and when necessary talked with Lumpley and other MC's on certain aspects of the rule book.
I agree.
As in: If this is how it happened it seems....
But to exaplain what I meant:
If that was how it happened I think there is a problem with
MC hard move- The sniper is obviously a MC hard move. The MC shouldn´t make moves any time she want to. Only when it´s her turn to speak. And she shouldn´t make a hard move when the characters hits a 10+ on a move.
The MC can make a move when everybody is looking at her, and nobodys doing anything, or when the characters fail their moves. Not when a character is doing something the MC thinks is too bold, or bad or something.
Harm and armor- If the characters got a blade to the NPC´s neck armor doesn´t apply
That´s what I meant
/ Nils
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I wanted to be a badass like the gunlugger who, when she sees someone in the way launches a grenade and slaughters everything in her path. But insead the battlebabe got stomped all over.
I've seen that happen in other games where someone mistakenly plays the Battlebabe like a Gunlugger. It's a good learning experience.
But, consider the fact that even if you're rolling a +3 trait, you're going to roll a miss or a 7-9 about 50% of the time. So, negative consequences are going to be coming at you all the time. Things are going to snowball and get really tense. That's built in. You're going to get hurt, captured, lose things, have to make tough choices. There is no status quo in Apocalypse World. Even a Gunlugger is going to be up to their eyeballs in shit. So, when you say "I'm killing the guard" despite the sniper tower, despite all the shit that might happen to me because of that choice, you had better really want that guard dead. That may be the choice that kills you.
Honestly i dont are that much about the battlebabe incident. I tried something and i failed.
The reason why I focused on it is that it's a concrete incident that highlights exactly what's going on in the game. It's at the heart of your frustration. Your experience of the game is very different from the others at the table, and I think that's because your expectations of the game are not in line with what it delivers. I'm sure that it was the same thing with the Hocus. Choices were made and things snowballed, and everything got all shooty. Which is cool, sometimes you get shot in apocalypse world. Hopefully, the things that got you shot mattered.
Regarding that BB incident itself, the problem is not that you tried something and failed. It's that you tried something and expected not to be changed because of that choice.
I was just seeking advice on how to be a more effective skinner without trying to rock the boat.
Come on dude. Your post was not "please help me play my skinner better." It was "I can't play my skinner" because if I do anything my MC will up and kill me like the last two times.
It seems that many posters say to be more adventerous, which i guess i will try to do and hope it wont end badly.
If that's all you got from the thread, I think it's failed. You need to:
1. Have a character that wants something.
2. Try to figure out how to get what you want.
3. Go and do those things.
and 4. Realize that the character is going to change because of these choices. Sometimes brutally so (seriously, my skinner October? Completely doused in gasoline and set on fire by Ambergrease. When I play her again, I'm thinking she's either a hocus or a touchstone).
So, no. Don't just be more adventurous, or violent, or manipulative. Be more willing to go for what you want and more willing to see how things turn out.
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I would add: Be mindful of the risks--don't back down from making a move on something you want on account of a reasonable amount of trouble, but don't pick fights with an army over a quarter, and consider trying less-hard moves (like reading, or getting allies, or casing the joint, or finding out where they sleep at night, or just waiting until someone doesn't have backup) to stack the odds in your favour before making a hard move in dangerous circumstances.
Make those moves, though. If I were your MC (I'd be a shitty MC for many reasons, but I won't get into that), I'd be sorely tempted to throw some moves at you to make inactivity far more dangerous than making a move.
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You need to:
1. Have a character that wants something.
2. Try to figure out how to get what you want.
3. Go and do those things.
and 4. Realize that the character is going to change because of these choices.
Sometimes brutally so.
So, no. Don't just be more adventurous, or violent, or manipulative. Be more willing to go for what you want and more willing to see how things turn out.
I think that should be in the new Players Book. That is how I would love to have all my players play.
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This calls for a new custom move!
When you hang out and don't really do much or pursue any kind of agenda roll +Hot
On a 10+ the MC chooses 1 of:
Someone important has heard of you, and wants to pay you an extravagant fee to do a job for them.
You are befriended by someone with hidden resources.
You have a prophetic dream in which the Psychic Maelstrom reveals a hidden treasure to you.
On a 7-9 the MC chooses 1 of:
Someone important has heard of you, and wants you to do a job for them.
You are befriended by someone who isn't really important or powerful in any way.
You have a prophetic dream in which the Psychic Maelstrom reveals a hidden threat to you.
On a 6- the MC chooses 1 of:
Someone important has heard of you, and wants to blackmail you into doing a job for them.
You are befriended by someone with a lot of enemies.
You have a prophetic dream in which the Psychic Maelstrom reveals a hidden treasure to you - but it's actually a hidden threat.
(More seriously - my thought behind this was that if someone doesn't have a particular agenda they want to push, they should be allowed to not push an agenda. Failing to push an agenda is, in a way, an invitation for the MC to push their agenda instead. My suspicion (WARNING! WARNING! Attributing thoughts and intentions to other people - may be highly inaccurate!) is that when the OP had his battlebabe walk into town like that, he was expecting something along the lines of 'The Hardholder sees that you are a badass, and offers you a job, which is full of danger, and excitement, and opportunities to kick ass and take names, even if it doesn't really have anything to do with your personal agenda.' As someone who is occasionally drained by the level of input a lot of story games require, I think that's a perfectly understandable approach.
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Well, the book already says whenever there's a pause and everyone's looking to the MC to say something, they should pick a Move and say it (guided by their Principals of course). So, if you're doing nothing, the MC makes a move and then asks what you do.
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You need to:
1. Have a character that wants something.
2. Try to figure out how to get what you want.
3. Go and do those things.
and 4. Realize that the character is going to change because of these choices.
Sometimes brutally so.
So, no. Don't just be more adventurous, or violent, or manipulative. Be more willing to go for what you want and more willing to see how things turn out.
I think that should be in the new Players Book. That is how I would love to have all my players play.
But the MC himself should be prompting the players to run their characters that way, it shouldn´t be something the players do by themselves...
I have a question about the Battlebabe and the Skinner. When they were introduced, did you introduce them in the ongoing campaign by asking the player about their relationships, their family, their jobs, etc.? Or did they just drop out of nowhere? Do they know already another PC?
I would´ve made my best try to create links between the new PC and the ongoing situation. You have to ask the player what does his character want, whom does he/she appreciate, why did he/she move on to the new holding, etc. If you try all that and the player still prefers to run a boring character, then you should stop him and have a serious talk about how does this game work.
But to me it seems like the first mistake was to simply let a character like that come to life.
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But the MC himself should be prompting the players to run their characters that way, it shouldn´t be something the players do by themselves...
What, why?
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But the MC himself should be prompting the players to run their characters that way, it shouldn´t be something the players do by themselves...
What, why?
I think that overstates the point a bit, but it is fair to say that the MC is supposed to ask provocative questions and build on the answers.
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Oh, yeah, but to say that it's not the PLAYER's job to want something or do anything provocative without the MC's prompting is.... meh.
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I thought he said it IS the player's job, just that they shouldn't be alone in doing that?
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Sure. But no. Like, the MC's job is to ask awesome questions and explore those in play. And the player should step up and work with that. But also, the game just works better when the players are proactive without the MC's constant prompting. The MC framework can be a solution to the problem of passive PC characters, but better to not need it, yeah?
So yeah, sometimes, it absolutely should be something the players do by themselves.
For me, it's the player's job, above everything, to play a protagonist, not just a character. The MC framework gives us a way to help that process, but it's nice to have players that are thinking of their own characters critically and creating interesting, active play.
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And the player should step up and work with that. But also, the game just works better when the players are proactive without the MC's constant prompting. The MC framework can be a solution to the problem of passive PC characters, but better to not need it, yeah?
So yeah, sometimes, it absolutely should be something the players do by themselves.
For me, it's the player's job, above everything, to play a protagonist, not just a character. The MC framework gives us a way to help that process, but it's nice to have players that are thinking of their own characters critically and creating interesting, active play.
My favorite quote in all of the book is in the Ungiven Future section...
Oh like it’s such a big shocker or so difficult to do. I mean, shit,
you’re the MC, you have 30 characters at a time, and your players
shy away from playing 2? The real question is, why don’t people
usually play with more than 1?
It's true the MC is already dealing with 30+ NPC's, lets be nice to him and not make him prompt the PC's to top it off!
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In fairness, asking the PCs provocative questions is one of the MC's many jobs. It's not wrong to ask an MC to give a PC something to react to when that PC's in a spot where shit is apparently going so well for them that they don't presently feel the need to make a move and affect their environment. Sometimes, even extraordinary people hit a smooth patch.
In fact, if anything, it's a tool for the MC as much as it is a job for the MC. PC seems to be sitting around twiddling thumbs? Make a move: read them. Ask them what they give a shit about and act on it, ask them what their hopes and dreams are and bait your hook, ask them what'll scare them out of their goddamn complacency and do it.