Barf Forth Apocalyptica

barf forth apocalyptica => Apocalypse World => Topic started by: Lukas on July 28, 2011, 06:46:36 PM

Title: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Lukas on July 28, 2011, 06:46:36 PM
In this campaign (http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1813.0), I'm playing a Maestro D'. However, a small issue has come up, namely: how does the Maestro D' get her barter? The "Barter" section of her playbook has far less concrete examples of stuff to do to earn some jingle compared to the other characters, she can't take Moonlighting, Wealth or anything like that as an advance, and her establishment doesn't seem to generate any surplus. Having "spectacular events" as her only source of income seems a bit weird. Right now, we're just assuming that the establishments generates enough income to sustain my character and her crew, but we're at a loss for more barter-related stuff to do.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: ctrail on July 29, 2011, 12:31:25 AM
Looks like this answers the first part of your question.
"The maestro d' doesn't need barter moves, she's mechanically self-sufficient."
http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=330

You can probably use the establishment to generate additional opportunities to make barter without moves, but if you'd like a move that accomplishes that I think Fingers in Every Pie is what you are after.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Shreyas on July 29, 2011, 01:56:38 AM
I don't know why you would want barter. Fingers in Every Pie is just better than having to barter for stuff.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Chris on July 29, 2011, 08:08:43 PM
....we're just assuming that the establishments generates enough income to sustain my character and her crew, but we're at a loss for more barter-related stuff to do.

Oh, god no. No, make him buy. Not all the time, but sometimes, have one of his NPCs tell him that it's time to pay up. When he asked you how he's supposed to get barter, ask him how he gets barter.

If he says "through my shop", then he's wrong. Business is hard in the AW. And mechanically, the establishment runs below cost. That's fine. Better to have side deals.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Dragomir on August 23, 2011, 05:24:15 PM
One issue has come up with my group and I would like a clear answer =)

Short version: Does the Maestro D have to pay for items he gets from Fingers in every pie?

Long version: I play a Maestro D and was so sure about that items gotten from Fingers in every Pie was "free" (but with strings if missed roll =) ). People like him so much that they want to stay on his good side so when the Maestro D really wan't/need something, he gets it.

But, now my MC has ruled that you have to pay normal market price for every single item you get from the move. Or suitable for favours and people who shows up (was getting a motorcycle part from our Biker and an Angel kit for our Angel to stay on their good side after some.. Events =)) . He states that the move just makes the items easely avalible, he doesnt reaceive them with the move. So that he acts a middle man, taking some barter for himself for the trouble.

Of course he may rule that way for our campaign, I'll just have to work with it that way. Kind of a cool way to play it, that I don't mind. But, how is it "officially" designed?
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: ctrail on September 02, 2011, 01:03:54 AM
I can think of several reasons not to expect it to cost barter "officially"
1. The way Fingers in every pie is written is very similar to the "make known that you want a thing and drop jingle to speed it on it's way" move. The 10+, 7-9, and failure descriptions are worded nearly the same. But for the second move you roll +barter spent, whereas Fingers in every pie you roll +Hot. So the way it was written, it seems like the advantage of Fingers in every pie is that you don't spend barter.
2. The Maestro D's establishment is mechanically self-sufficient. That means a lot of barter is changing hands offscreen. It makes sense for this move to represent the establishment being that much more profitable, such that the profits are what covers these items.
3. On a 10+ it comes no strings attached. Requiring additional barter seems very much like string attached to me.

That said, I don't have any information you don't, so unless lumpley wants to drop by and give a truly "official" answer, your read is as good as mine.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: lumpley on September 03, 2011, 02:46:49 AM
Uh, yes. Fingers in every pie is, as designed, barter free. You don't have to pay for that stuff, unless you miss the roll and the strings happen to be jingle.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Darkblood on September 09, 2014, 10:54:37 AM
What if the Maestro D' doesn't choose Fingers in Every Pie as a move? Is he just breaking even with his business, no barter whatsoever from there? Is this move kinda obligatory if you want to have money?

Also: can "Fingers in Every Pie" be used to get barter? (say the fellow wants to make reserves to some unforeseen future need). 

Sorry for the forum necromancy, I though it was better than reset the discussion. I've just started my first AW campaign and this is the first question to rise (the guys with the Maestro D' goes like "how come my character is the only one with no means to get money. I though I would be good on that side, maybe not Hardholder rich, but at least on par with the Operator").
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: nerdwerds on September 09, 2014, 04:29:58 PM
I've always MCed that the establishment is self-sufficient, provided the player doesn't miss a roll. We had a Maestro d' in our last game and when he missed rolls I looked through crosshairs at his bar: a power outage occurred, somebody stole his fresh whiskey, and one of his employees tried to take over the business.

When I played a Maestro d' I never once rolled a 10+ with fingers in every pie and so I was always struggling to get what I wanted and trying to make what I had work. The MC in that game was kind enough never to hit me with a really hard MC move when I blew that roll since I had terrible luck with that character.

The barter moves and fingers in every pie don't need extra bells and whistles or extra rules to make the Maestro d's life harder because the MC agenda, principles, and moves provide enough for you to challenge the PC.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Darkblood on September 09, 2014, 08:25:11 PM
I've always MCed that the establishment is self-sufficient, provided the player doesn't miss a roll. We had a Maestro d' in our last game and when he missed rolls I looked through crosshairs at his bar: a power outage occurred, somebody stole his fresh whiskey, and one of his employees tried to take over the business.

When I played a Maestro d' I never once rolled a 10+ with fingers in every pie and so I was always struggling to get what I wanted and trying to make what I had work. The MC in that game was kind enough never to hit me with a really hard MC move when I blew that roll since I had terrible luck with that character.

The barter moves and fingers in every pie don't need extra bells and whistles or extra rules to make the Maestro d's life harder because the MC agenda, principles, and moves provide enough for you to challenge the PC.

That's exactly my doubt here, your whole answer seems to assume the character has the fingers in every pie move. What if he doesn't (that's an optional move, right?), what roll would the character miss to get problems with his bar (or other business), how can he ever get profit out of it?
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: nerdwerds on September 09, 2014, 10:04:16 PM
That's exactly my doubt here, your whole answer seems to assume the character has the fingers in every pie move. What if he doesn't (that's an optional move, right?), what roll would the character miss to get problems with his bar (or other business), how can he ever get profit out of it?

You're assuming the business has to be profitable. It doesn't.
If the player wants to expand their business, or make it profitable, without using fingers in every pie or picking p an improvement then that's something you play to find out by asking the player "what do you do?" The business without anything is simply self-sustaining, add the player's intentions, desires, and actions and the business might be profitable or it might crash and burn. Adding a mechanic to draw money from the business would make the business more of a resource to draw upon and less of something to look at through crosshairs, or maybe the MC would look at it even harder. There are no status quos in Apocalypse World.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Darkblood on September 09, 2014, 11:03:45 PM
I understand that it is much more interesting to play out any "barter gainage", but the Maestro playbook still seems at odds with what has been done in all the other playbooks.

Even less "businessman oriented" playbooks have guidelines on how a person like that gets money. Take the Gunlugger "one month’s employment as thug-on-hand" is worth one barter. Fair enough. Any MC worth his salt will, of course, make that month interesting... but we know what's the going rate (even if only to allow players to try and haggle for more). Now, the more "endowed" characters have even straight out mechanical ways to get barter (Operator, Hocus and Hardholder roll for it), and those barter gaining moves also present delicious opportunities for mayhem when they fail. It seems odd that the Maestro has neither one nor the other.

There's also the matter of relative values and living expenses. When we read that a Brainer can get 1 barter for "one week’s employment as kept brainer" we establish that their services are much more valued than the Gunlugger (1 barter/ month in such a passive job) or a  Hocus (also 1/month for counseling or ceremonial duties). We are either left in the dark as to the value of the Maestro business or implicitly told that it is not profitable at all. Or even worse... somewhere in the book it is stated that we should make the characters buy the "month’s living expenses, if your tastes aren’t too grand" whenever we feel that sufficient time has gone by (or we need to get them off their fat bottoms). If that's also true for the Maestro D, a "fingerless" Maestro is actually moving towards bankruptcy at -1 barter per month. Of course he can just take a gun (or a gang, if he went for that) and go rob people or something, but any other character can do that (some do it better in fact).

Please don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to just be critic or something. I'm trying to get the angle on this character and see what other people have done with it. I've it firm in my mind that the Maestro gets at least 1 barter a month (which cancels living expenses), but I'm still pondering on how much more it could get when the wind is favorable, and what kind of downsides there are when they are not. That sound a lot like a move to me (if I got this game right). Am I missing something? Does this guy has some great perk I am missing which counterbalances him not having a surplus/want kind of move? Will I break the game in his favor if I make one?
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: noclue on September 09, 2014, 11:09:47 PM
Why should a Maestro that does not have fingers in every pie not be heading towards bankruptcy at 1 barter a month? It just sounds like it's difficult to run a gin joint in Apocalypse World. I like that this encourages the Maestro to get active, where there could be a lot of incentive to just turtle in their little world. Having to get proactive or go bust doesn't seem like a bad thing for me. The Gunlugger just has to risk his body to get barter. That's true. His life is simple.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: nerdwerds on September 10, 2014, 01:27:46 AM
I understand that it is much more interesting to play out any "barter gainage", but the Maestro playbook still seems at odds with what has been done in all the other playbooks.

I don't have the pdf handy, does the Maestro d' not have a section describing barter on the back of the playbook?
If that is missing I could understand your confusion, but compared to the other playbooks I don't see a problem. The wealth move covers barter on hand for the session, and moonlighting is the only truly concrete move that allows a player to accumulate real moneys.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: nomadzophiel on September 10, 2014, 01:59:51 AM
In the same way that a Gunlugger can do enforcing of murder to make barter, the Maestro has things beyond the basic venue that are worth barter. What's it worth to a pair of gang leaders to have a private meeting on neutral ground? The Maestro can make it happen. Want some private time with one of the dancers? Sure but that's a premium service. Does Balls owe the Holder money? Well he's a regular and the maestro can collect for a cut. Need someone dead? Devil With A Blade and Give Me A Motive are nasty. The Operator has Moonlighting but the Maestro has the skill set to get out there and hustle in play.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: DannyK on September 11, 2014, 12:41:03 AM
I've run games with a Maestro D' in them before, and the Barter question didn't really come up that much.  I figure a guy running an establishment is going to be able to support himself on the margins anyway. Just like how the Hardholder doesn't have to worry about having a place to live or paying for dinner. 

The Maestro has plenty of other stuff to worry about, like keeping his employees from stealing, keeping NPCs from taking his place over or shooting up the joint, and maintenance.  In the games I've played, the Maestro D' did a lot with favors, giving the Savvyhead a coveted box seat in exchange for help with the spotlights, that sort of thing.  I guess you could make them pay "rent" of a barter a week, but I don't see the need.  THere's lot of opportunities to make them pay for stuff.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Darkblood on September 12, 2014, 06:03:46 PM
Why should a Maestro that does not have fingers in every pie not be heading towards bankruptcy at 1 barter a month? It just sounds like it's difficult to run a gin joint in Apocalypse World.

I just doesn't seem very realistic for a person to keep a business going if she needs to be working elsewhere to remedy the loses the damn thing imposes on her. Also, it is not just a gin joint, my player choose to have "drugs" as the main offering, supplemented by alcohol and sex (all pretty lucrative stuff in all historical scenarios, people will forfeit food for some of these) - and I´m betting all of those choices are pretty frequent in AW games :D

I don't have the pdf handy, does the Maestro d' not have a section describing barter on the back of the playbook?
If that is missing I could understand your confusion

Then you do (understand my confusion)  :D - to be completely honest, there is a barter session, but it only covers the cost of things (the same that is repeated in all playbooks: "1-barter might count for: a night in high luxe and..."). It has no information on what the Maestro does to get money. The "If you’re charging someone wealthy for your services..." block is simply not there. The Operator and Hardholder are also like this, but they have moves to make up for it.

the Maestro has things beyond the basic venue that are worth barter... What's it worth to a pair of gang leaders to have a private meeting on neutral ground? The Maestro can make it happen. Want some private time with one of the dancers? Sure but that's a premium service. Does Balls owe the Holder money? Well he's a regular and the maestro can collect for a cut. Need someone dead? Devil With A Blade and Give Me A Motive are nasty. The Operator has Moonlighting but the Maestro has the skill set to get out there and hustle in play.

Nice! That´s exactly what I was looking for. I´m starting to see the Maestro D as a buyer and seller of information, or a facilitator. Does that make him too much alike the operator?

Would you say "a special meeting in neutral ground", "some private info on someone important" or "the location of someone currently hiding" are worth one barter? That would give an operator a way to get money with it´s other moves (without introducing a new move).

I figure a guy running an establishment is going to be able to support himself on the margins anyway. Just like how the Hardholder doesn't have to worry about having a place to live or paying for dinner. 

I agree with you, at the very least I won´t make this guy buy the 1-barter monthly living expenses (but once again, the Hardholde playbook says that´s the case explicitly, the Maestro D doesn't)
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Ebok on September 13, 2014, 10:49:08 AM
If you want to host a whole bunch of things beyond just playing the guy that owns the local watering hole, like, if you want Profit from those gigs. I would suggest you take moonlighting and theme your gigs as inside your establishment. An easy way to see profits rise and troubles with them. Nothing comes cheap.

I'd certainly not say a night with a girl is worth a month's hard living. That's absurd, unless that girl's the Skinner. However the When you charge someone wealthy for your services section... is just something you have to work out with your mc, knowing whats appropriate. He shouldn't be trying to screw you out of your holding because the barter isn't flashing up to be soaked away every month. That's "paint by numbers" and not "making the world feel real". Logic would dictate that: of course if you've lasted this long to be a PC and then be on scene, /something/ has been keeping you afloat until now. Figure out what that is with him.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Munin on September 13, 2014, 03:22:09 PM
It just doesn't seem very realistic for a person to keep a business going if she needs to be working elsewhere to remedy the loses the damn thing imposes on her.
The business isn't imposing any losses. The business itself (by itself) is barter neutral. Yes, you might be able to charge a fair amount for booze or sex or drugs or whatever, but you have to have gotten that stuff from somewhere. Getting all that stuff has a cost (and a hook - who are your suppliers?). Housing all of that stuff has a cost (and a hook - who is your landlord and what do you owe them?). And most importantly, protecting all that stuff has a cost (and a hook - do you have your own muscle on the payroll, or it someone else offering protection in exchange for a cut?). So yes, you provide a service, but that service has costs of its own. In total, if you don't do anything special (or stupid), your profits and those costs offset.

And yeah, if you chose to live in your establishment, I might also knock off the 1-barter a month living expenses. But maybe not, depending on what it provides. A roof over your head is great, but a man can't live on sex, booze, and drugs alone (despite what Keith Richards would have you believe). Sooner or later you gotta eat.

Absent having connections (which is essentially what fingers in every pie represents), if you want to be rolling in barter you've gotta do what everyone else has to do - hustle. But it doesn't have to be outside your establishment. A good business owner is going to leverage his establishment to help him hustle. Want to make more money off the drugs? Invite your source to dinner, then poison the fuck out of him and tell him that the only way he gets the antidote is by telling you where he gets the stuff. Spoiler alert - there's no antidote.

Expand into a new and lucrative side-business (a perfect use for moonlighting). Welch on a deal. Overcharge a desperate customer.

Just remember that no matter what services or goods you're offering, honest businessmen pretty much never get ahead in Apocalypse World.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: chelonia on September 14, 2014, 03:08:11 AM
Dunno, this all doesn't really sound like being a fan of the Maestro. If I picked the playbook that focuses on running a business, I'd probably feel cheated if the MC insisted that the business itself couldn't ever make any money. I mean, by a strict reading, the Maestro can't even afford to eat at her own restaurant, which doesn't really square with Vincent's post in the other thread about being "self-sufficient".

The barter section tells us that your crew's cut of a spectacular event is 1-barter. It's weird that it doesn't give any suggestion what the Maestro's cut is, but that's probably the way to solve the problem: you and your establishment are self-sufficient, and if you want extra barter for whatever, tell us about the spectacular event you're throwing to bring it in.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: nerdwerds on September 14, 2014, 05:44:13 AM
The only thin I don't understand is why the Maestro d' doesn't have moonlighting as one of it's improvement options.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Munin on September 14, 2014, 01:59:34 PM
you and your establishment are self-sufficient, and if you want extra barter for whatever, tell us about the spectacular event you're throwing to bring it in.
Exactly.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Daniel Wood on September 15, 2014, 06:31:16 PM

The Maestro D' is specifically designed to bypass the Barter system. Like that's the thing that is actually going on, here. On purpose.

If you want to make a 'profit', take Fingers in Every Pie. Or figure out what a real profit looks like, and get it. The Maestro D' does not run a business, she runs an establishment; this is not late-era capitalism, this is the apocalypse. Barter is the least interesting thing in the game, anyways, why would you be upset that it's been replaced by something specific and useful?
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: chelonia on September 15, 2014, 07:53:30 PM
Sure, but the "establishment" in question is among other things a means of distributing resources to its staff and patrons, and Barter is how personal control of the distribution of resources is abstracted in AW. Barter per se isn't that interesting a mechanic, but scarcity is certainly an interesting theme, and that means you can't be too vague about what resources a character has to throw around.

(Fingers in Every Pie bypasses the barter system, but it's an optional move, and scarcity is still a theme whether or not you pick it. Does the Maestro just roll over and die if the MC picks "Make Them Buy" as a hard move? Should the MC just never pick that move? If the Maestro is paying in free meals at the club or whatever, how many can she afford to give away, and how is that different from bartering? If Dustwitch the medic always charges everybody else for fixing them up, should we just assume she fixes Maestro out of the goodness of her heart? Much easier to just use the same Barter system the other playbooks use for the same reasons the other playbooks use it.)
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Daniel Wood on September 15, 2014, 09:23:26 PM
Sure, but the "establishment" in question is among other things a means of distributing resources to its staff and patrons, and Barter is how personal control of the distribution of resources is abstracted in AW.

Another way of thinking about it is: do you want to abstract the thing the playbook is about? What is the advantage of abstracting the economic life of the Maestro D's establishment? The Gunlugger doesn't have a 'roll this and some people just die whatever' move. Playbooks that are 'about' economic activity have moves that model the fictional reality of their particular activities; the Operator and Hardholder don't have an 'if you're charging someone wealthy for your services...' section, either.

"You can't be too vague about what resources a character has to throw around" is as much an argument against Barter as in favour of it. Without Barter, the resources a character has to throw around are as specific as possible: things we know they actually have, for fictional reasons. We might not know what they are 'worth', abstractly, but we know what they're worth, concretely, to any other NPC or PC, because we just have to follow our principles and we can figure it out. Instead of 'Barter' we just end up with barter: an exchange between two people.

The playbooks present a spectrum, as mentioned; some playbooks have services they might provide, and their general costs in Barter is listed. Others have specific moves to generate Barter, which replace that list of services, but generate complicated social situations when used. The Maestro D' takes this even further, with no services listed AND no moves that generate abstract wealth. Instead they have only their fictional establishment, and its built-in relationships -- many of which are economic -- as well as an optional move for a Maestro who wants to be able to generate specific, rather than abstract, wealth.

The Maestro D' is an optional playbook, so it's not surprising that it does some things a bit differently. I think it is a pretty interesting experiment, vis-a-vis the way wealth is portrayed in Apocalypse World, and what that specifically says about the sort of micro-culture the Maestro D's establishment depends on. Nothing the Maestro D' has can leave with them, nothing can be separated out from their establishment. They are tied to it and trapped by it, at least starting out. If the circumstances that make that establishment possible are threatened, they stand to lose it all.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Munin on September 15, 2014, 09:27:28 PM
Why would the Maestro D' "roll over and die" when hit with make them buy any more than any other character would? What separates the Maestro D' from any other character who may or may not have any barter on them at the time? Why would the MC refrain from using the move in these cases? I would argue that the best time for an MC to use make them buy is when a character (of any playbook) has no barter on hand. Scratching 1-barter off your character sheet is not interesting. Figuring out how to get what you want when you don't have the means to purchase it outright is far more intriguing.

Further, the establishment isn't necessarily "about" distributing resources at all.  If your establishment is about spectacle, with side jaunts into scene (see and be) and games, with an atmosphere that offers noise, blood, violence, and a cage, you don't run a inn or a brothel or an opium den. You run Thunderdome. Sure, maybe you get a cut of the gambling that goes on there (or maybe people pay some kind of admission), and that covers your expenses (buying pit slaves, training them to be gladiators, equipping them for their matches, the occasional medical expense, building or buying props, etc). If you want to turn that into some kind of profit over and above the usual operating expenses, tell the MC how you plan to do that. And he or she will say, "Awesome!" And along the way complications arise, and you will play to find out what those are and how they get resolved.

But trying to decide up-front how much barter a Maestro D's establishment "generates" passively is like trying to decide up front just how many jobs an Operator can work in a week or a month - it completely misses the point of the playbook.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Daniel Wood on September 15, 2014, 09:29:01 PM
In my experience with the game, Barter is a pretty mediocre tool for representing scarcity in Apocalypse World. 'You are out of gold pieces' is not a compelling move. Yes, you can Make Them Buy, and sometimes that really does make their lives more interesting -- but not usually because they then have to go gather some generic Barter until they can afford the thing.

Usually the result of the move is that they either a) get to show off all that Barter they've gathered (i.e. you're using it to be a fan of the PC, not as a hard move) or b) they have to do something else entirely to get the thing they want. Often the something else is small-b barter: i.e. doing a specific task or getting a specific thing that will allow them to trade with or gain leverage over whoever has the thing they can't afford to buy.

(Cross-posted with Munin.)
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: chelonia on September 15, 2014, 09:57:00 PM
We might be talking at cross purposes, since I'm not suggesting the establishment should generate income passively. I'm responding to the idea that the Maestro is somehow outside the Barter system and never gets any Barter from Maestro-ing. Hence the problem with Make Them Buy- if the Maestro doesn't ever have any Barter she can't ever be made to buy, even though lots of resources fictionally flow through her hands. (Yes, it's possible to not be a distributor of resources if your staff are all volunteers who provide their own equipment and do their own maintenance, but that's not exactly the general case, you know?)

The full extent of my view is: the establishment and the Maestro are self-sufficient in the general run of things. If for some reason the Maestro wants extra mechanical Barter in order to interface with the various game mechanics that reference Barter, she should tell the group about the awesome events she is running to generate it, thus enriching the story. If she wants wealth to be a big ongoing aspect of her character, she should take Fingers.

Daniel, you're arguing for not playing with Barter at all, or minimizing your use of it. Which I think is a perfectly sensible way to play and also how my instincts go. But it's going to come out weird if everybody but the Maestro is using the Barter system fully.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Ebok on September 15, 2014, 10:37:30 PM
The Maestro D can still kill someone for a barter, they just might poison the guy. They might get a barter from someone wealthy for hosting a big event they want in their establishment. They're not outside the barter system at all, they just don't represent something so specific that it needs or desires listed examples. Sure they don't need to worry about surviving from month to month if they've got their establishment, but if some *&% blows open a wall, it might cost something to fix it. Figure out who needs something you can provide, and charge them a barter for the services. Its not like the things listed in the other playbooks are all that extraordinary when you consider their themes.

Consider some themes, play the part, they can make barter just like anyone else, they just have to do it on screen rather then off-screen like an op or hard-holder. Its not a complicated issue.

–––––
On a slight tangent, O'm interested in feedback. How would you handle a character with the fingers in every pie, that wants to have an item show up like magic, but that item is like hi-tech or important to the narrative with implications. Say you've a savvy head who wants to build a certain kind of bike and is working towards it being awesome, can the guy with fingers in every pie just say he wants a bike just like it and have it show up? What if they say they want the specific or unique thing someone else has or just got. What if they;re out there trying to find a thing, and they find out where it is, does this move bypass any narrative challenge presented? Granted that last one was frame in the quest for treasure thought process that I know AW isnt concerned with, but bare with the example. I've my own understanding of these answers, but I'd like to hear feedback on the move we're avoiding discussing here.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Daniel Wood on September 15, 2014, 11:44:12 PM
Daniel, you're arguing for not playing with Barter at all, or minimizing your use of it. Which I think is a perfectly sensible way to play and also how my instincts go. But it's going to come out weird if everybody but the Maestro is using the Barter system fully.

I was mostly trying to suggest that the game works fine without Barter at all, it just requires more work, and that doing that work when the Maestro D' is involved might be particularly rewarding.

I don't think it's going to come out weird at all if every playbook is using 'the Barter system' as much as they are designed to do so. It's not really much of a system, since the moves that actually use Barter as a value are explicitly optional anyways, so there really isn't much to break down. Certainly my experience playing games with Maestro D' PCs are that this is not a problem at all. Like, at all at all. It may be that other MCs like to make a lot more use of Barter in general in their MCing, in which case I can see how they might be a bit uncertain how to proceed with a Maestro D.

But as Munin and others have pointed out, the Maestro D is not somehow immune to paying for things, just because they have no clear way to generate Barter. They are 'outside the Barter system' only in the sense that the playbook is designed to have other ways to pay for things, or get the Maestro D's needs met. There is no rule in the playbook that says 'this character cannot gain Barter,' there are just no rules in the playbook that explain specific ways for them to do so. My feeling is that this actually interacts particularly well with a world in which the other PCs are heavily Barter-involved, precisely because of the contrast it brings*, and the questions it asks about what the 'Barter' economy actually looks like. It makes it harder for players to pretend that Barter is actually money, which can often be an issue in games where the status quo is trending heavily towards 'working civilization.' It's easy for players to lose track of what's actually going on underneath the abstraction, and the Maestro D being in the game demonstrates that other means of generating wealth/opportunity are both present and often more powerful/useful.


* But also because it presents an obvious avenue for the Maestro D's player when they need Barter: get it from the other PCs.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Munin on September 15, 2014, 11:52:22 PM
In some sense fingers in every pie is analogous to the peripheral barter move of making it known that you want a thing and dropping jingle to speed it on its way, except that it doesn't cost you any barter to do it. In some sense, it is nothing more than a slightly more complicated stat-substitution move.

But the interesting (and often overlooked) thing about both moves is that neither actually explicitly says that the item comes to you for free. Just that it comes to you with or without strings attached (and I would argue that "available for a fair price" counts as "without strings attached"). Fictionally, I interpret this as the money that you are spending to "get the word out," to essentially advertise that you are looking for a specific thing. It's resources you spend to keep peoples' attention focused on your wants rather than (or in addition to) their own. And if it's a 1-barter item I might let it slide and ignore the cost depending on the fictional situation (essentially rolling the purchase price into the advertising cost). But for valuable or hi-tech or fictionally important items? Dropping jingle (or having connections and community good-will as represented buy the Maestro D's move) just gets you an introduction.

What is intriguing about fingers in every pie is that it's people trying to please you that make this happen. This implies that in some sense the loyalty of your employees or customers has a tangible worth. Or that your reputation within the community is such that people see a benefit in trying to keep you happy over and above mere "jingle."

In my campaign, our Maestro D' used fingers in every pie to put the word out that he needed a gun (there had been some trouble in the establishment of late and things had gotten dicey). Since a basic weapon is a 1-barter item, one of his employees (he's not even sure who) scrounged up a loose pistol, no questions asked, no payment required. It just showed up one day. It seemed fictionally appropriate, largely because his employees understand that protecting the establishment means continued employment. But if he made it known that he wanted a case of pristine violation gloves still in the original factory packaging? Sure, one of your people might know someone who knows someone and might even make an introduction. But that kind of tech isn't going to show up in your establishment for free regardless of what you roll+hot.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: chelonia on September 16, 2014, 03:57:52 AM
Munin, on page one of this discussion, Vincent explicitly says that things obtained via Fingers don't cost Barter unless you get a 7-9 and a barter cost is the "strings attached".

I don't find much to argue with in the rest of what you're all saying. Why do you think the Maestro should be unique in this respect, though? If the game is best when the Maestro doesn't get barter from running her establishment, why wouldn't the game be improved if the Angel and Savvyhead didn't get barter for being on-call or the Brainer didn't get barter for being a "kept Brainer" or the Gunlugger didn't get barter for hiring out as a thug-on-hand? Does this all hinge on the absence of a line on the Maestro playbook saying what the going rate for your services is? Or if that line were present, would you be in favor of removing it?

(Also, Fingers is an optional move, meaning that only some Maestro characters have non-barter ways of getting stuff they want. If it were mandatory it would be clear why the Maestro was different, but the Finger-less Maestro is simply worse than all other characters at getting material things she wants and that doesn't seem sensible to me.)
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Munin on September 16, 2014, 10:54:09 AM
Munin, on page one of this discussion, Vincent explicitly says that things obtained via Fingers don't cost Barter unless you get a 7-9 and a barter cost is the "strings attached".
While I appreciate his response, I think it's a little bit of a simplification. Also, strings don't come into play unless you miss. But if the Maestro D' says, "Ya know, I think I'd like to have me a fully functional Abrams tank," and rolls+hot to the tune of an 11, the MC is left with a choice - does he follow the fiction or be a fan of the character? That's why I said that for basic items I tend to run it at no cost. But more valuable stuff requires more fictional interaction.

I don't find much to argue with in the rest of what you're all saying. Why do you think the Maestro should be unique in this respect, though?
Because the nature of the Maestro's establishment can vary so widely. Absent tying a barter amount to each type of business (and modifying it for each type of atmosphere), it's hard to know what costs what. It's also highly dependent on the fiction of a particular game. If alcohol is a very rare commodity in your world, it's more valuable than in one where alcohol is plentiful. Also, is your establishment huge and bustling, or small and intimate? Because of all these fictional considerations, it's not really conducive to creating a list of relative worths. So it's described as covering its own costs, and anything over and above that is up the the player and the MC to figure out.

At least that's how I interpret it.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: As If on September 16, 2014, 11:46:12 AM
if the Maestro D' says, "Ya know, I think I'd like to have me a fully functional Abrams tank," and rolls+hot to the tune of an 11, the MC is left with a choice - does he follow the fiction or be a fan of the character?
This is where I would make more fiction follow after the event. 
1. The tank arrives.  One of your people pulled an amazing stunt to get it.
2. The next day, hot on its trail, comes an armed group of angry strangers who want their tank back.
or
2. The tank attracts the attention of  a local asshole you would have preferred it didn't.
or
2. The tank has something inside it which is going to lead to more trouble.
etc.

It's not a "string attached" because it isn't part of any negotiation for the tank.  But something does follow.  You can't expect a tank to move across the landscape without angering its previous owners or attracting some sort of attention.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Munin on September 16, 2014, 12:27:33 PM
I see those as strings, but I think this kind of interpretation is why so many of the rules in AW are left intentionally vague - they give lots of room for the MC to introduce dramatic elements to the game.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: noclue on September 16, 2014, 12:32:30 PM
Oh definitely! Give that man a tank. What's the worst that can happen?
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: As If on September 16, 2014, 05:40:39 PM
@munin, put it this way: If I pre-planned such an event, I might consider it plotting, which is a no-no.  If I telegraphed it to the players as a warning of some kind, I would consider it a string.  But if I just leave myself with the assumption that you can't move a tank without attracting trouble, then all I have to do is wait for my next MC move and think about my Fronts & NPCs.  And now there's a big-ass tank in that consideration.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Munin on September 16, 2014, 06:03:19 PM
Sure. Clearly I did not reach far enough in my hyperbole. I only meant to illustrate that there are times when being a fan of the characters is at odds with following the fiction and making the world seem real. If the Maestro D' can ask for literally anything with a reasonable expectation that someone will just give it to him, then that has its own set of ramifications that your table might want to think about. In that case this question of "how much barter does the establishment generate" is the least of your worries.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: DannyK on September 16, 2014, 11:11:56 PM
Theoretically, sure, the Maestro D' could just conjuring things up using that move until he'd built himself the Wehrmacht; the things running counter to that are the social pressure not to be a dick, and the MC's principles of being true to his prep.  I don't think any of the AW play books is completely dick-proof but a few of them, like the Hoarder and this one, are especially abusable. 
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Borogove on September 17, 2014, 01:29:39 PM
Theoretically, sure, the Maestro D' could just conjuring things up using that move until he'd built himself the Wehrmacht; the things running counter to that are the social pressure not to be a dick, and the MC's principles of being true to his prep.  I don't think any of the AW play books is completely dick-proof but a few of them, like the Hoarder and this one, are especially abusable.

In both AW and DW forums, the concept of an abusable move comes up over and over and over. The answer is always the same: a couple of hard moves off of 6- rolls solves the problem.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: noclue on September 17, 2014, 07:53:34 PM
Plus, being a fan of a character doesn't mean he gets anything he wants.

But a tank? Definitely!
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: Ebok on September 17, 2014, 08:26:50 PM
Thank you. ^_^
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: nomadzophiel on September 18, 2014, 01:58:37 AM
I think, for me at least, asking for a working tank is like asking for an alien blaster. Sure, everyone wants to find you one, because being on the Maestro D's short list for the next party is a good place to be. Thing is, it just doesn't exist, at least as far as anyone knows. Now if Balls shows up with a ray gun or the local warlord rolls out a tank, the Maestro D' can say she wants that particular item. Then it comes with its own consequences when Mox comes rolling into town with a tank gunning full speed to stay ahead of the previous owner's enforcer gang. Or even ok, yeah, its yours for now. No one knows who stole it and gave it to you. Of course, if the owner finds out you've got it. . . well, that's the hard move for a missed roll.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: noclue on September 20, 2014, 12:20:42 AM
I think giving him a tank is a hard move all by itself ;)  I mean, people can't ignore that shit.
Title: Re: The Maestro D' and Barter
Post by: DannyK on September 20, 2014, 01:10:59 AM
I think giving him a tank is a hard move all by itself ;)  I mean, people can't ignore that shit.

Good point. There was actually an episode of MASH all about this -- some general parks his tank next to hospital, and the doctors are frantic to get it moved or blown up or something because it's drawing all kind of attention to them.