Barf Forth Apocalyptica
barf forth apocalyptica => Apocalypse World => Topic started by: JoeNobody on June 24, 2011, 09:39:38 PM
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We have a player who loves being a gunlugger. Through improvements, he will eventually be forced into either switching playbooks, or retiring his character and making a new playbook. He wants to do neither. What would you suggest as an alternative? Or would you tell him to "suck it up and play the game as written"?
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He can also start a second character while continuing to play his original character, that sounds like it may be the best option.
Edit: Just noticed you said eventually- he hasn't actually taken every other available advancement, you are just worrying about this in advance? In that case I'd advise you not to worry about it, you may never get there and by the time it actually becomes an issue he may have changed his mind about not wanting to switch playbooks or retire the character. If you do, then my first answer still stands, he should play two characters if he doesn't want to retire the first one.
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retiring his character and making a new playbook.
If the player really likes playing a Gunlugger... let them retire the current character (if they get that many advances) and play a new Gunlugger... rinse, repeat!
Or, to slow down advancement, the player could ask the other players to highlight stats he doesn't use as often.
Or maybe they just stop advancing after they've got all their advancements... but keep on playing the character!
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Even if you're playing two characters, the first is still advancing and will eventually need to retire or change books.
I'd talk with him. Make it clear that this happens for a reason; the best fiction features characters that change, maybe even against their will. Tell him that he's not playing a new character and would most likely keep several of the gunlugger moves. Also, tell him that by this point, he's in charge of a gang, a hold, and he has gigs. Another book might be able to handle all this better. But most of all, tell him again: you're still playing the same character; you're just exploring another side of him.
If he's still dragging his feet? Fuck it. Life's too short. He's the permanent gunlugger.
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He can also start a second character while continuing to play his original character, that sounds like it may be the best option.
he already has made an angel pretty much for the sole purpose of patching up his gunlugger. While he has made her a fully fledged character in her own right, he has stated that was her purpose.
: Just noticed you said eventually- he hasn't actually taken every other available advancement,
he only has about half of them you are just worrying about this in advance?
yes that case I'd advise you not to worry about it, you may never get there and by the time it actually becomes an issue he may have changed his mind about not wanting to switch playbooks or retire the character. If you do, then my first answer still stands, he should play two characters if he doesn't want to retire the first one.
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If the player really likes playing a Gunlugger... let them retire the current character (if they get that many advances) and play a new Gunlugger... rinse, repeat!
he says he wants to keep this character active.
Or, to slow down advancement, the player could ask the other players to highlight stats he doesn't use as often.
possible
Or maybe they just stop advancing after they've got all their advancements... but keep on playing the character!
that is pretty much our current solution, I was just hoping for something new. The MC said we can just keep filling in our advancements over and over. I feel that robs something vital from the game, but I don't have a better solution. Personally, I can't imagine anyone not wanting to play at least a couple of the other playbooks.
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I'd talk with him. Make it clear that this happens for a reason; the best fiction features characters that change, maybe even against their will. Tell him that he's not playing a new character and would most likely keep several of the gunlugger moves. Also, tell him that by this point, he's in charge of a gang, a hold, and he has gigs. Another book might be able to handle all this better. But most of all, tell him again: you're still playing the same character; you're just exploring another side of him.
If he's still dragging his feet? Fuck it. Life's too short. He's the permanent gunlugger.
Yeah, I've said most of this to him. A static character can get boring very easily, but, it's his character. He's done a good job of entangling himself in the fiction and with other characters. He just likes being known as the baddest ass.
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The MC said we can just keep filling in our advancements over and over. I feel that robs something vital from the game, but I don't have a better solution. Personally, I can't imagine anyone not wanting to play at least a couple of the other playbooks.
I agree with you, the limitations on the advancements strike me as pretty important.
That said, he might change his mind by the time he ticks them all off. And failing that, it wouldn't be the end of the world if he just kept playing the maxed out Gunglugger and stopped taking advancements, if he's enjoying it.
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When you switch playbooks, you keep everything essential to your character. If that happens to be some gunlugger stuff, so be it. ;)
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Or maybe they just stop advancing after they've got all their advancements... but keep on playing the character!
Yeah, this really isn't a problem? After he's checked off every possible advancement he's pretty much a complete and utter badass, if the Gunlugger is his perfectly ideal character then what else does he need?
By that point in the game most of the real advancement in the game is coming through the fiction anyways.
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He just likes being known as the baddest ass.
Though I will say, this part just confuses me. How would changing playbooks somehow make him less of a badass? Your playbook isn't your character -- the character is a person in the fiction of the game, and they don't somehow get demoted in Badassery because their playbook label now says something else.
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You can also try some supplement, like the maleficent seven of Jonathan Walton: http://thouandone.wordpress.com/2011/04/09/aw-the-loner/
In any case a Gunlugger doesn't lose his moves and stats, so what's the problem? You'll end with a gunlugger battlebabe.. not bad, I think...
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If the game's still fun for everybody, then you have a bunch of different options:
-- make some custom Gunlugger-ish moves for him to take
-- make a new playbook that's basically Gunlugger part 2
-- let him keep taking additional moves from another playbook
-- let him take a gang or hold and keep buying options for those
If the game stops being fun (or consistently as fun) for you and the other players, then you're gonna have to talk about it and reach some sort of compromise or just stop playing the game (whether you start a new one later or not).
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It never occurred to me that you had to take an advance. I'd work up custom moves or let him sit and keep playing or consider whatever he's suggesting.
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Thanks for all the great suggestions folks!
The problem I’m having is that I’ve made myself a paradox; a strong-silent type with serious trust issues and a helluva lot of backstory and character development that needs to happen.
Our MC says (as do the rules) that getting a new playbook means taking on a new life. You leave behind the old and take on the new. For a hardholder, you give up your hardhold. For a driver, you give up your car(s). For a gunlugger, you give up your guns. As mentioned in another thread <http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1771.0 (http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1771.0)>, this gunlugger sees her guns as her surrogate family. She has named them, is loath to let anyone hold them, even got caught singing to the one named after her baby sister. Problem right?
Granted being the baddest ass has its appeal. I’ve made D&D characters cheesy enough that DMs said they hated wasting perfectly good monsters on them. I think in this case it’s also a snowball effect: other players (and myself) seeing the gunlugger do what she does and highlighting Hard/Sharp so she gets played that way. This speeds her playbook advancement and tends to have her living in the moment (doing the opposite for backstory and development).
Here’s my plan. I’ll ask the other players to highlight something besides the Hard/Sharp pair to slow down advancement and buy some time. I’ll make it my personal goal to bring in something from her past, then post it for J. Walton on ‘one thousand one’ and beg him for the ‘Loner’ expansion.
Other options might include changing playbooks to: touchstone (if she gets her issues together), hoarder (if she doesn’t), or angel (if my 2nd character advances to something else).
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Our MC says (as do the rules) that getting a new playbook means taking on a new life. You leave behind the old and take on the new. For a hardholder, you give up your hardhold. For a driver, you give up your car(s). For a gunlugger, you give up your guns.
Actually, that's not what the rules say; it gives examples of things that might change, but if you read the whole section on that advance, it ends with the following:
It’s up to you (the MC) to work out with the player which of her character’s
things are in which category. (intrinsic vs old life)
What stays and what's left behind is decided on a case-by-case basis, unique for each character that takes this advance; it may be a radical change it may be subtle, but it's not cut-and-dried. Heck, I've had a player make a change in playbooks that allowed a debility to be removed!
And, for your Gunlugger, they wouldn't be giving up their guns, they'd be giving up their family if they got rid of their weapons; if the change to a new playbook doesn't involve the fiction of giving up that "family" there's no need to get rid of them.
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+1 to what Chroma said. The rules are you keep everything that belongs to your intrinsic self, and leave everything that belongs to your old life. If your guns are your family, that sounds to me like they could be part of your intrinsic self, but I guess that's between you and your MC to decide.
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Sounds like the character would make a great Hoarder. And obviously that wouldn't involve giving up her guns, since guns would presumably be the thing she is hoarding.
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Actually, that's not what the rules say; it gives examples of things that might change, but if you read the whole section on that advance, it ends with the following:
It’s up to you (the MC) to work out with the player which of her character’s
things are in which category. (intrinsic vs old life)
What stays and what's left behind is decided on a case-by-case basis, unique for each character that takes this advance; it may be a radical change it may be subtle, but it's not cut-and-dried. Heck, I've had a player make a change in playbooks that allowed a debility to be removed!
I'm the MC for this bit of fiction, and I had typed up a reply that kind of mirrored this during my lunch break but had to leave before I submitted it. :)
But, I agree with this. When I was originally asked the question by Umilak I really hadn't thought it all the way through. My initial assessment was effectively how Umilak stated it, but I wasn't really comfortable with it. We hadn't talked about it since then (or.. at least not when I was sober) but I agree that the change won't necessarily require giving up the guns. I think there has to be some trade off but I think it can be just as much in the fiction as in the mechanics.
Honestly, considering how outstanding everyone's been so far in game I'm not that worried about anything they want to do. They're all neck deep in the fiction and haven't done anything I've been particularly worried about.
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@Daniel Wood
I think so too! That's actually where I'd love to see him go. But it's not up to me :)
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hoarder (if she doesn’t)
Oooh, that's a good one.