Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: Michael Pfaff on June 16, 2011, 04:38:32 PM
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I just want to make sure I am doing this right.
According to the text, when you mark XP of your level times 10, you level up. When you level up, you erase your marked XP and start over.
So, does this mean you need:
current level 1 x 10 = 10 XP to reach level 2 (10 total XP earned)
current level 2 x 10 = 20 XP to reach level 3 (30 total XP earned)
current level 3 x 10 = 30 XP to reach level 4 (60 total XP earned)
etc...
?
You've noted that you earn 7-8 XP per session on average in your playtests. That means, you'll need to play roughly 10 sessions (70 XP) to reach level 4 right?
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Yes, that's the idea. That said, XP/level is one of the most hack-friendly parts of the game. Tune it to your preferences.
The default reflects the D&D-style. You start our pretty fast, maybe even hitting second level in the first session. Then things slow down as you hit the groove of the game.
I think leveling can provide some early drive as the game builds, then as leveling slows down the game is already firing on all cylinders. Getting to cast more spells isn't as big a deal as finally getting your revenge on Vurther who you've been at odds with for several sessions. Sure, more spells helps that, but you're bought into the fiction pretty deeply.
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Sweet. I just didn't want to be screwing my players over if it was supposed to be 10 XP, level, 10 XP, level, 10 XP, level, etc.
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Forgot in my first post: I know of several groups doing a flat 10/level and having a great time. Especially if you want a shorter game, maybe focusing on one dungeon and the fallout from it, that's a great cadence.
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One-shot vs campaign mode?
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Forgot in my first post: I know of several groups doing a flat 10/level and having a great time. Especially if you want a shorter game, maybe focusing on one dungeon and the fallout from it, that's a great cadence.
I think we'll try the default and then adjust as needed as you suggested.
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re:mease19 - I'm not sure I'd want to make it that explicit, but sure. Matter of taste, really.
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As long as we're talking about XP, I'll beat this drum again.
I hate highlighted stats as the XP method for this game. I did, I still do, I will later.
The game is dripping with AW mechanisms repurposed to express D&Disms in exciting ways. And then the highlighted stat thing, unchanged from AW, just flops there like a beached whale.
XP and leveling is, like, the thing from D&D! Every game after has copied it, but it was canonized there. It's really important. I think there's an insight to be shared here -- something that you and Adam know about D&D gaming and leveling that can be given a much better expression.
Me? I'd probably do something like Keys for each class (but done as a simple 5 item bullet list or something). Do all 5, level up. Or each one twice. Or whatever.
But that's me! That's not your insight. I bet you guys have one.
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Alignments are pretty much keys. No buyoffs, but along the same lines. If we did something more key-like, it would go there.
Do we need highlighted stats? Maybe not. That said, I don't think they're hurting anything.
Maybe we should do it via compels...
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Sounds like lazy design to me.
"They're not hurting anything" ? Bah. I think they are.
Because of its heritage, the game has an underlying structure to the action (exploration, fights) that AW doesn't. Highlighted stats make sense in the wide open play of AW, but not in the dungeon-adventure structure of DW -- which of course heavily favors certain approaches and actions over others, simply by frequency, for starters.
Also, the content and meaning of improvement is different than AW's -- in several critical ways that tie directly into how XP is gained, and who has a say in that.
A simple port-over is missing the point and a big opportunity.
Now I've said my peace.
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Hey, John, you know what our plans are, right? There's one place we won't make any changes, since it's not like painfully broken, and one place we'll totally consider beefing up alignments. All I'm saying is: hey, good point, but not on our RIGHT NOW list (which is pretty long).
Everyone else: you'll understand soon.
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Back with an actual alternate XP idea: Each class has 5 things they do to level up, but per level. So here's your five things for first level. Accomplished those? You're level 2! Here's 5 more.
It's kind of a cool idea for strong, fictional leveling. To prove yourself as a fighter you have to do these things.
It's a bookkeeping nightmare though.
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A list of seven, do five of them. Or a list of 10 and do seven.
There could be a list of 10 for each alignment for that class.
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Yeah, that's pretty much what I just emailed to Adam.
8 things per level. For each alignment the class allows, one is tagged with that alignment. Do 5 and you level.
Why 8? It's the smallest number (for space) that allows for not doing all of your options. 10 would be good, with the same constraints, but that's more space.
There's no way these would fit on the playbooks for all levels. There could be notecard-sized level sheets to track them, but who wants to print notecards? There could be an XP-playbook per class, but that's a whole 'nother thing to print per class.
Just having a master list per class, instead of per class per level, is easier, but could be a little repetitive. Also allows spamming one option.
Maybe one advancement playbook for everyone? With, say 20 options per level, with a few of those marked as class or class+alignment specific. It could even have multiple checkboxes next to each, so that every player can track their XP on the same sheet. Still kind of impractical, but having XP tracked in a shared space has some interesting social implications, much like physically taking XP for keys.
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Highlighted stats make sense in the wide open play of AW, but not in the dungeon-adventure structure of DW -- which of course heavily favors certain approaches and actions over others, simply by frequency, for starters.
I think the highlighted stats work in AW because the stats are ways of being. You can highlight cool when you want them to be cool. The stats in D&D/DW, on the other hand, qualities that characters posses inherently. You can't tell someone that you want to see them be stronger, no matter what your bond.
On the other hand, I like that highlighted stats challenge you to approach situations differently.
What if you got xp each time you make a character move? That way you're rewarded for playing to your niche, the basic/advanced moves are stuff everyone is expected to do.
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Yes, good point. That's the source of frustration I've seen at the table, I think.
When someone highlights the Gunlugger's Hot, he's all, "Huh, okay, why not?" Opportunities for seduction and manipulation are abundant to him.
When someone highlights the Wizard's Strength, she's all, "Uh. Thanks a lot, asshole." It's a total waste. The Wizard is the wizard, and she's not gonna go running around stabbing stuff just because someone checked a box.
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I agree that this does not feel as strong as the rest of the game. I'd like to see something like a combination of alignment, class, and goal associated xp rewards like keys.
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If the goals are the same per level, but fairly general, I'm not sure it'd be repetitive. Can anyone list a few of what we're talking about?
Is it like the wizard might check off 'unravels a magical mystery' or 'creates a magical item' and the fighter might check off 'prevails in a difficult combat' or 'keeps the rest of the party safe' and stuff?
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That's one take, definitely. My per-level ones were a little more focused and became grander with level. First level evil wizard has "Bend someone's will with magic," not a big thing. Second level evil wizard has "Sacrifice a creature for magical power." etc. That's probably too dramatic a change, sacrificing might wait for higher level.
Another example: first level wizards can "Have the right knowledge at the right time," second level "Discover a secret from an earlier age."
These are just from my email to Adam, quick first drafts. I worry that writing a lot of them could be very tough (8 per level x 9 levels to advance through).
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Yeah, writing all that sounds like a real chore.
But if you could come up with twelve general ones, where you need five to level and you can't use the same option two levels in a row, you could prolly write twelve per class, right?
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i like the new idea for leveling. it has very good potential but a fear that they might end up pigeon holing classes into acting a certain way. but if they are general enough that should not be an issue! but again i really like the idea!
i also really like the alignment xp from this game. i think a way to keep that feel would be to have a list of general actions that is augmented by a few from the alignment. just an idea.
i agree with john harper for a change against marking stats. in the sessions we had where someone got a stat they actually use marked they shot up way too fast in XP (like 20-30 a session...) while everyone else got less than ten. my other issue is the general moves themselves. this has already been mentioned, but a fighter with his wisdom marked can discern realities with impunity but a wizard with strength marked cannot willy nilly go stab the minotaur. (basically its easy to force tests for mental stats than it is for physical ones)
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I think I agree on the stat-highlighting being wrong for the game play.
I have added some custom moves to the game I'm DMing to emphasize exploration and discovery:
Discover a New Place
When you discover a new place in the world, mark experience.
Fight a Monster for the First Time
When you fight a monster for the first time, mark experience.
Of course, these are open to anyone.
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I dig the Fight a Monster for the First Time move but the Discover a New Place seems too vague and I would expect players to argue for "discovering" every room they enter. Also, if a player spouts lore about a monster, could you screw a player by asking "What happened the last time you fought this monster?"
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I dig the Fight a Monster for the First Time move but the Discover a New Place seems too vague and I would expect players to argue for "discovering" every room they enter. Also, if you spout lore about a monster, could you screw a player by asking "What happened the last time you fought this monster?"
Eh. My game is sort of "West Marches" style I guess. Discovering a new place ... It doesn't mean like, Ooh I discovered this new restaurant, awesome. No, it means uncovering a dungeon or other adventure locale on the map.
Spouting Lore doesn't necessarily imply that you got the knowledge from fighting the monster. It's more about legends, tales and fables, tomes and other fonts of knowledge.
In my campaign, the assumption is everyone is sort of beginners I guess, so it works.
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What if each class, alignment and race had lists of these how to level up things and either got them all or selected some number of them to distinguish your character. To avoid the pigeon-holing issue, I mean.
My neutral human ranger maybe chooses five from the neutral alignment, five from the ranger and two from the human lists, sort of emphasizing that neutrality and rangerness is more important than humanity. Or maybe that's more complicated than is needed. Dunno.
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Anyone wanna write up an example of a list? I'm sort of having a hard time imagining these things.
I've pondered "achievement" style leveling before, but it'd be neat to have a frame of reference.
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Rangers:
_ You lead others on a dangerous trip into and back out of the wilds.
_ Your animal companion saves your life.
_ Your Called Shot either ends or avoids a perilous melee.
_ You live off the land for an adventure.
_ During combat, you protect the life of someone in your care.
_ Your knowledge of the wilds brings you material gain.
_ You detect something hidden.
_ etc..
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Awesome.
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This is a lot like keys from The Shadow of Yesterday by Clinton R. Nixon, except you'd get xp each time you hit one of them. I'll have to re-read that to get some ideas.
Should they be called "experience moves" or something like that?
I'm thinking of using something like this in my game, except you still have to gain the normal amount of experience to level up. Maybe the first time you hit one, you get 3 xp, and after that you only get 1.
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Yup. Alignments are already pretty much Keys you can't buy off. There are also a few XP moves that aren't alignments, but those are a little rare these days.
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The first few editions of D&D gave out XP for recovering loot, but not for defeating monsters. 2e gave out XP for both. 3e changed to just XP for defeating monsters, but made it a spendable currency. 4e made it a meaningless pacing mechanism for PCs, and an encounter design tool for DMs. But all editions have had XP as the thing that contributed to leveling.
If you want that "old school, dungeon crawlin'" feel, give out the bulk of XP for retrieving loot. Use that to replace the XP currently gained from highlighted stats. That'll pretty tightly focus the players on getting in and out, grabbing the most goods with the least peril.
On top of that, I'd recommend 2-3 keys that each PC picks (like the current alignment keys). I'm thinking each PC should have 3 keys:
- One that's hit during violent conflict, based on how you fight or what you do during a fight. Example: the good cleric's "bring someone back from the brink."
- One that's hit by interactions with other players or PCs. Example: something like the wizard's Often Right move
- One that's hit by interactions with NPCs and/or the environment. Example: the neutral ranger's "help or defend an animal."
Maybe you can tag these keys as "good," "evil," chaotic," or "lawful." Can't have two keys that contradict each other. Maybe change one of your three keys every level?
Bonus: if you keep track of the "loot" XP as a whole for the party, you can use it as a "group XP" number, ala Storming the Wizard's Tower. When a new PC joins the party, they start with all the "group" XP. But they don't have all the XP the established characters got from hitting their keys.
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I just wanted to point ya'll to Marshall Burns' MADCorp, esp. the experience and improvement system. I don't think it's publicly available anywhere, but I'm sure he'll let you check it out if you ask him, and it's quite relevant.
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Here are my ideas for Keys to replace stat-highlighting.
Class: Of the 7, you choose 1, 1 is chosen by the PC with most +bond, 1 is chosen by the GM (most are worth 1 XP, a few are worth 2)
Race: Of the 3, choose 1 (these are worth 2 XP)
Reset the class ones at level-up and/or at the beginning of each session; the race ones should only be reset once accomplished. The reason being that the class Keys are things you already are, but the race Keys are things you strive to become.
Fighter
Cunning Distracter: A foe engaged in melee with you is taken out by another member of the party (max 1/fight)
Beast of Burden: Carry an important piece of equipment for another character throughout a Perilous Journey and a dungeon crawl
Reckless: Charge headlong into battle/danger without a plan
Swashbuckler: Use a weapon to inflict a “status effect” (knocked down, disarmed, etc.) on a foe, rather than dealing direct damage
Piñata: 5 or more different enemies take a swing at you during a single fight
Swiss Army Knife: Successfully use 4 or more different weapons in the same fight
Military History Buff: Discover a new piece of information about an important weapon, piece of armor, group of soldiers, or military leader
Cleric
Missionary: Win a convert to your god (only counts once if you convert an entire horde of mooks)
Avenger: Defeat a foe who had insulted/defiled your church/god
Archivist: Uncover an important piece of information about the history of the gods
and/or the church
Martyr: Go without something you need (food, healing spells, sleep, etc.) in order to
help other members of the party
Prophet: Information granted to you by your god helps the party avoid or mitigate danger
Mediator: Help to peaceably resolve an argument between two or more other characters (not necessarily PCs)
Doctor: Cure a party member (including yourself) of a medical condition, such as a poison, disease, or fungus
Thief
Cat Burglar: Enter into a dungeon or encounter by an unusual means or from an unexpected direction
Connoisseur: Forgo a large amount of cash in favor of a single or small number of well-crafted items
Assassin: Kill a target on behalf of someone who is a) paying you to do it and b) not present in the scene where you do the killing.
Fence: Sell an item of great value on the black market
Minesweeper: Face a natural or crafted threat so that the other members of the
party don’t have to.
Blackmailer: Use a piece of embarrassing or harmful information you have about someone to get them to do what you want
Spy: Give important information learned on a quest to a member of your government (2 XP)
Wizard
Evoker: Use magic alone to kill a foe (max 1/fight)
Abjurer: A spell completely negates harm to you or a party member from one attack
Transmuter: Turn one subtance into another or one creature into a different type of creature
Illusionist: Trick or bamboozle an enemy, avoiding direct confrontation
Enchanter: Create a magic item (2 XP)
Diviner: Knowledge you gained through arcane means helps the party either bypass
a danger entirely or be better-prepared to face it
Conjurer: Successfully interact with other planes of existence or their representatives
Human
Diplomat: Turn a potential/likely (non-human) foe into a friend
Colonist: Bring other humans to an area you and the party have explored to set up a
town
Strider: Form a multi-racial coalition in order to hold back a Dark Threat
Elf
Evenstar: Successfully but tragically romance a member of another race
Tree-friend: Destroy some major work of one of the sentient races (including “monster races” like Orcs or lizardmen) that was encroaching on the natural beauty of an area
Star-vault: A doom you foretold comes true
Dwarf
Craftsman: Complete the creation of a great piece of art, be it a weapon, a suit of armor, a stronghold, or something else
Oathkeeper: Avenge or undo a great wrong done to your family or your clan
Miner: Find and exploit a hitherto unknown natural resource deposit
Halfling
Gourmand: Discover and take possession of a treasure trove of creature comforts, such as delicious food, comfy furniture, or of course pipeweed
Scourer: Permanently rid a normally peaceful village or city of a source of oppression and danger
Bullroarer: A new cultural tradition is named after or inspired by one of your exploits
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waitasec.
Why build a new XP structure when you can just bang! attach one to what's already there? You have Bonds; when you use a Bond (yeah, none of that baroque AW 'reset' business) you get xp. When you render a threat nonthreatening, get xp=its level.
Done! Inherent to the moves and Bonds, the way you do this will fulfill the strictures of your identity without requiring additional tracking of stuff.
Plus Keys stink of TsoY. Stink of it.
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Shreyas—sure, that could work, too. But do all threats have levels? If we fight 10 level 1 goblins do we get 10 XP? Do we split them?
Matt
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I dunno. I'm not the boss! The way I'd run it, though, it's "you as a group" getting all of the XP equally - if there's 3 of you you all get 10xp, and if there's 5 of you, you all get 10xp too.
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It's like somebody's been reading out emails...
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I think I'm going to use Shreyas' suggestion in my Gateway game next weekend.
My first impression is that some of the starting bonds might not work so well with this method, but I bet I'll be surprised by the ways my players use them.