Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: agony on May 18, 2011, 03:26:18 PM
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So balance isn't a big deal, I agree. The only concern, and why I created this thread, is when balance tips into the player's scale so favorably that PC death is so very unlikely to occur that combat gets boring. Part of the reason why I created this thread is that I feel like if I aggressively tried to kill our group's Fighter, I would have a tough time doing it unless I resulted to dickery. This feels a bit wrong to me, but check the points made below.
So, yeah, probabilities. Every Fighter is going to have +3 Strength by level 3, for sure. Thus, he will score a partial success on a Hack and Slash move 91% of the time at level 3. He will get a complete success 59% of the time (rounded up). That means nearly 60% of the time the Fighter will receive no damage if fighting a single foe and he doesn't need to Defy Danger (roll Dex to avoid damage).
The problem that is coming up in our group is that I have thrown level 6-7 monsters at a group of level 3 and 4 characters (at different points in the game) and at least twice I thought they were suicidal for attacking. Nope - no one's had to roll on Death's Door yet except for one other encounter which doesn't have to do with this thread.
The issue is that the Fighter Attacks the NPC up close while the other characters stay back and support. The bard will heal the Fighter 12 points of health (this is like all the Bard does, sing over and over again), The Thief sneaks around or runs away, and the Wizard will throw a fireball or two not caring if he hurts the Fighter.
I'm pretty sure our level 4 group could kill the level 10 Dragon in the monster section as the Fighter has like 40 hit points and does somewhere around 15 damage when buffed up (which he always is).
I know statistically this is in a vacuum but it just feels wrong that the Fighter will only take damage 40% of the time all the while the Bard is healing him for nearly half to one-third the damage caused.
I feel like I should be driving harder with my monsters and being more aggressive in combat but I find it difficult being a fan of the characters and appropriately challenging them at times.
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i do agree that the chances of succeeding on a roll using the characters primary stat in DW is high. i do think this is balanced out by a lot of the penalties for failing. yes, my fighter has 40hp, but monsters often hit for around 20. even with armor that is still close to half my life in one go.
i really think the destabilizing presence in our group is a combination of fixed damage and bardic healing. with fixed damage it is easy to calculate exactly how long i can stay in the fight without having to worry and bardic healing offers a fixed amount of healing most rounds as a counter to incoming damage. (eg; you do 20 in a hit, armor reduces it by 2, making it 18, that round the bard sings and heals 12, ive taken a net 6 damage. with a cleric it would be healing probably 2d8+2 which on average is not only less than 12 it can easily result in much less than 12. one bad roll and the fighter drops)
the other issue with bardic healing is it doesnt decrease at all. the only option on failure is the bard gains unwanted attention. (i guess this means he gets attacked or something in a fight? or something else...?)
if healing was coming from magic spells it would not be nearly as easy to stand up to big baddies (at least at our level, im not sure about later ones...) due to random healing amounts and diminishing effectiveness of healing as the cleric missed hits. (taking -1 to cast will quickly diminish your chances of getting a heal off)
i think when i brought up bardic healing in another post sage might have taken it the wrong way. i feel that bardic healing is WAY too good and can easily supplant a cleric or other character with healing magic in any group.
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If it's the entire party against one monster, then yeah, that'll happen. So throw three or four minions into the mix to harass the rest of the party. Will the bard try to (Defy Danger) heal the fighter and get punched in the face for 8 damage + Saving Throw or will he fight back, or defend?
Or, barring that, have the dragon just push past the fighter and bite the wizard. Will the fighter Defend the wizard, try to tackle the dragon (Defy Danger + possible Saving Throw!), or let the wizard die while he gets in a free hit?
Plus, the Fighter should be making some saving throws if he's getting hit at all. At least by a dragon. Knock him on his backside, and then it's more Defying Danger when he tries to get up. Or just use it as an excuse to run over eat the rogue.
I'm probably oversimplifying, but I think there are ways to tweak this back into line.
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You make some good points Ludanto, but my players will make moves like "I swing hide, avoiding the monster and taking cover behind the rubble in the darkness." I let them do this with a Defy Danger roll but that's pretty easy to make, especially if you're a Thief. If their intent is to hide and or seek cover out of the monster's reach and they succeed, they should get their intent. This is kind of routine for our group.
Obviously, it's harder to hide against a dragon but against most monsters I'm very hesitant to say, "No, you can't get out of danger."
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i think this specific post was about a giant scary monster that should twomp the party not really being that much of a threat. if its a lot of smaller groups that dont do as much damage the bard doesnt need to heal as much so he wont have to expose himself to danger that way. bard could soak a few rounds of minion damage without too much issue, and im sure the wizard and thief would be able to handle them while i stayed on the big baddie. even if the big baddie went after the others, a simple defend roll pretty much negates anything it can do (and even makes it easier for the party as you can take half damage instead of full)
i think one of the issues we have is, if you hack and slash a monster does it get to threaten people outside of that? if it does isnt that sort of a double jeopardy?
one thing that agony didnt really mention, is during all of these fights i am pretty much on the verge of death the entire time. if the bard missed one round of healing i probably wouldnt have made it out alive.
(also saving throws are pretty easy for a halfling fighter...)
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You are on the verge of death but statistically I think your chances of dying are somewhat small.
Here's another thing, say the big baddie goes after the rogue. The rogue can still take two hits before he dies from even some of the toughest monsters in the game (we're talking a level 4 Thief here). If the Thief defy's danger he will dodge damage 91% of the time. The Fighter will easily kill the big bad before he kills the Thief or the bard or whoever.
Even if the Bard is attacked and only dodges the big baddy 50% of the time that's 4 rolls before the Bard is dead with no healing involved. The Fighter will deal damage each of those 4 rounds and will have dealt about 50-70 damage to the enemy in that time (The Fighter deals damage 91% of the time when he Hack and Slashes). So still seems off.
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This is kind of a lame answer, but I think there's some truth to it:
If the players are having fun, if you're giving them the "adventurer's life", if you're being a fan of the characters, then it's just not a problem.
If that's not the case, then remember that the "adventurer's life" is harrowing, dangerous and unpredictable, and that on a miss you get to make as hard a move as you like. Go nuts. Bring in bigger reinforcements. Drop the floor out from under them. Separate them. Put someone in a spot between two bad choices. Hit them with direct damage. (Yes, they can Defy any Dangerous Doom that you've Shown Signs of, so if you need to, don't show signs. Sneak attack!)
Don't do it all of the time, of course. Just do it enough to keep them from being bored.
Eh. Make of that what you will.
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i wont argue with you on that. especially on the survivability of everyone compared to the survivability of monsters. in reality the rest of the party (wizard not included) are not that much less durable than the fighter. i dont have the numbers in front of me but im pretty sure the thief has 13 fewer hp than i do and the bard has more than the thief. their armor is 1, which is only 1 less than mine so its not like being a fighter greatly reduced the amount of damage i take.
i know the thief has a dex of 18(+3) as you mentioned which means he will pass most of his defy danger rolls and im pretty sure the bard has a +2, but im not positive.
basically its not like threatening everyone else (wizard aside) is really that big of a threat.
i do think your damage estimates of the fighter are a bit high. the damage dropped significantly with the recent rules changes. normal i would do 10 points average (d10 + d4 +1 +1) (i have -1 weight and forceful/messy on my signature weapon and use an off hand war hammer which adds the +1 along with the warrior move for +1)
buffed i would do 2 more damage (magic weapon from the bard casting cleric spells) which is average 12 damage so for four rounds i would do about 48 buffed. but, if i am hack and slashing the monster, do they still get to attack someone else?)
(oh and my favorite exploit in this game so far, which we havent used or agony would have a stroke, is to enhance bull strength on a fighter(or anyone) with 18 strength gaining a total +5 to hack and slash. you cant miss outright and almost always will get a hit...)
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(Wow. Enhanced Bull's Strength is crazy!)
BTW, as I was told earlier usually Hack and Slashing won't stop a monster from doing anything (except possibly damaging you). There might be exceptions, depending on the fiction, and if it dies before it can act that would do it, too.
I suppose if it bothers you having it fight back and still do whatever it was doing, then it just takes your damage and does whatever it does, no Hack and Slash roll needed.
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I want to point out that in our most recent set of combats I (the thief) was rendered useless via a series of follies and circumstances. I'm not complaining at all but it was a way to reduce that party's effectiveness and still keep in the fiction. Though, I nearly accidentally got out of the mummy's curse with a halfling snack unknowingly. Even if I had I still would have been equally useless vs the big baddy since I had no inscribed weapon to fight with.
We have no cleric and I was cursed (i guess) and I couldn't heal the damage it did to me. Which was 20 of my 27hp. So I had to wait until we got back to town to be healed up. After this we had a huge battle with gnoll type men followed by the big scary bat lady. This was all in a dream world where nothing was real. While the other three were unaffected in they styles (for the most part) this knocked out 1/4 of the party. Unless I wanted to risk dying on a flubbed roll trying to give someone a +1 on something.
There are ways around hurting the party and you've done them.
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So... lemme see if I understand.
The Fighter is really good at fighting when:
- He's not overrun
- He doesn't have to defend anyone
- The Bard is healing him
I guess my question is: wouldn't it be weird if the Fighter wasn't awesome under those conditions? That's like Fighter heaven! So, yeah.
There's other stuff going on here. It's a mess to untangle over a forum, though. If I had to take a semi-blind guess, from way over here, I'd say that you're trying to "run fights" like you do in, say, 4th Ed. That'll get you less-than-optimal play in DW. I can say more about that if you think it's relevant.
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I'd like to hear that, maybe in a new thread if necessary. I'm doing ok, I think, but I can feel the 4e pushing in on the sides of my eyes like gloucoma.
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So... lemme see if I understand.
The Fighter is really good at fighting when:
- He's not overrun
- He doesn't have to defend anyone
- The Bard is healing him
I guess my question is: wouldn't it be weird if the Fighter wasn't awesome under those conditions? That's like Fighter heaven! So, yeah.
There's other stuff going on here. It's a mess to untangle over a forum, though. If I had to take a semi-blind guess, from way over here, I'd say that you're trying to "run fights" like you do in, say, 4th Ed. That'll get you less-than-optimal play in DW. I can say more about that if you think it's relevant.
You're not exactly right John as I haven't played D&D for about 9 years and have not played 4e. We place the fiction at the forefront but the fact that Hack and Slash has an encoded enemy attack in its failure makes things very confusing. I have a hard time determining how hard to press the attack in the fiction and what I'm allowed to do as a GM, does that make sense? For what it's worth, I find it very easy to GM Apocalypse World.
Also, overrunning the Fighter does nothing unless he's being overrun with Monsters higher than his level. Groups do very little extra damage and the Fighter counts as a crowd.
He never has to defend anyone unless he's fighting like multiple level 6-10 monsters. They all have decent health and can easily dodge incoming attacks.
The bard healing him thing is a legit point but he can still sing and heal and Defy Danger to avoid incoming attacks quite reasonably. He has +2 dodge so he can easily roll a 5+ on 2d6 most of the time (that may lead to other problems but he only has to heal the Fighter once or twice).
Do you really think a party of level 4 adventurers should be able to realatively easily take out a level 7-8 monster? Maybe that's ok, I dunno. I just noticed that Sage and others have remarked that things aren't balanced in Dungeon World - sometimes the players have to know when to run away. I have not seen this phenomenon becuase I've routinely thrown scary monsters (twice their level) at the party and we've never had a character reduced to 0 HP.
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(With regard to overrunning the fighter, I don't think he means Groups. If three individual monsters are hitting the fighter, he can only Hack and Slash one. The other two get their licks in for free.)
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Okay, my blind guess was off. Maybe I'll talk about the "running fights" problem in another thread.
I haven't seen a problem with the PCs being hard to threaten (quite the opposite) so I'm at a bit of a loss. You said you're having trouble knowing how to press the attack in the fiction, and what you're allowed to do as GM. Maybe say more about that? To me, it seems the same as in AW.
Do you do the thing where you scale the challenge of an NPC (or monster, in this case) by how their fictional attributes impact which moves the PCs make make (and how they make them) when they fight?
Like, the simplest example: when they fight a dragon with teeth as long as a sword and a great lashing tail, and foul breath that can stagger a horse, and the Fighter with the longsword says, "I hack and slash it!" I say, okay... uh... how? If he says, "With my sword!" then I laugh and laugh until he comes up with something remotely plausible.
Or if he glares and says, "No, seriously, I stab it." Then I'm like, "Okay! You rush closer to get into reach, and the dragon's tail lashes out, smashing the stone wall next to you to pebbles and arcing back toward your legs. What do you do?" That's, like, part one of getting close enough to a fire-breathing giant monster to stab it. Wish him luck with parts 2 and 3.
See how that makes the dragon a major challenge to the guy with the sword? Maybe you already do that -- it's a thing I do in AW, too. I'm just trying to get a gauge on how different our approaches are.
@Ludanto: Yeah, that's what I meant. Well, that, and also when 2 of the goblins attack the fighter, while the other 4 rush around in the shadows and try to stab the wizard in the back.
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All of that fiction is nice in theory but doing it every time for every attack every round every monster it's quite boring. On top of that you are requiring everyone to be able to fancy stories behind every attack; regardless of the player's ability to think of something fancy that just means "i stab it." I think this sort of thing is for exalted where you're rewarded for doing it, not limited to doing it to please the GM or be punished.
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Boring? Ha! Not a bit. What you call fancy I call describing the action. It's really very critical for a game like DW, where the precise fictional actions determine how the mechanics come into play.
Also, the thing I'm specifically talking about are tough, challenging monsters. The kind of ultra-dangerous foes who aren't immediately vulnerable to conventional attacks. Fighting a dragon is a kind of pinnacle experience in a dungeon crawl game. It ought to be "fancy" as you put it, with all kinds of gripping action and perilous moments. Who trudges all the way into a dragon's lair just to say "I stab it" and roll the dice? What a shame that would be.
Finally, there's not any "please the GM or be punished" going on there at all. Go back and take a closer look. If you really think there is, that's a much longer conversation for another time.
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Okay, my blind guess was off. Maybe I'll talk about the "running fights" problem in another thread.
I haven't seen a problem with the PCs being hard to threaten (quite the opposite) so I'm at a bit of a loss. You said you're having trouble knowing how to press the attack in the fiction, and what you're allowed to do as GM. Maybe say more about that? To me, it seems the same as in AW.
Do you do the thing where you scale the challenge of an NPC (or monster, in this case) by how their fictional attributes impact which moves the PCs make make (and how they make them) when they fight?
Like, the simplest example: when they fight a dragon with teeth as long as a sword and a great lashing tail, and foul breath that can stagger a horse, and the Fighter with the longsword says, "I hack and slash it!" I say, okay... uh... how? If he says, "With my sword!" then I laugh and laugh until he comes up with something remotely plausible.
Or if he glares and says, "No, seriously, I stab it." Then I'm like, "Okay! You rush closer to get into reach, and the dragon's tail lashes out, smashing the stone wall next to you to pebbles and arcing back toward your legs. What do you do?" That's, like, part one of getting close enough to a fire-breathing giant monster to stab it. Wish him luck with parts 2 and 3.
See how that makes the dragon a major challenge to the guy with the sword? Maybe you already do that -- it's a thing I do in AW, too. I'm just trying to get a gauge on how different our approaches are.
@Ludanto: Yeah, that's what I meant. Well, that, and also when 2 of the goblins attack the fighter, while the other 4 rush around in the shadows and try to stab the wizard in the back.
I do that but likely not enough. When the group fought a Dracolich it was coiled up above them and out of range of the beastly Fighter, using its breath weapon to inflict lots of damage on the group. The Wizard player cleverly Dazed the dracolich causing it to fall from the ceiling and land near the fighter where he could smack it.
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Or if he glares and says, "No, seriously, I stab it." Then I'm like, "Okay! You rush closer to get into reach, and the dragon's tail lashes out, smashing the stone wall next to you to pebbles and arcing back toward your legs. What do you do?" That's, like, part one of getting close enough to a fire-breathing giant monster to stab it. Wish him luck with parts 2 and 3.
See how that makes the dragon a major challenge to the guy with the sword? Maybe you already do that -- it's a thing I do in AW, too. I'm just trying to get a gauge on how different our approaches are.
Sweet!
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i wish people would stop using extremes... dragons are rare and you dont fight them very often. while your idea for making it harder to position yourself to be able to do anything to a dragon can work (personally i think following that logic makes it impossible to fight a dragon and kind of ruins some of the high fantastic feel that i get from the game) it does not work so well against something like, say, an ogre or some other high level but less physically imposing nasty.
"i hit it"
"how?"
"... in the ankle!" (yea... that works...)
of the two monsters we fought that probably should have killed us, one was a dracolich which he already explained on how we "got in" on. the other was an ogre which he imposed some restrictions on us because it was so much larger than us (especially my halfling) but that didnt really matter. (also to be fair this was previous rules when you could do double damage so it may no longer be applicable)
the whole point of this topic was that it seems very hard for the PCs to fall in this game. this is because everything is related around player stats and not really on the potency of the monsters. it also comes down to the question of 'if a monster is hack and slashed can it still make a move against the PCs (thus making hack and slash a double jeopardy situation) even if you do make the PCs come up with creative ways to close on a dragon, once they are on it and hack and slashing, unless the dragon can make other moves its pretty much locked down from there until the end of the fight. (and if it can still attack playing a melee character is now suicidal 'i roll a 9 to hack and slash and take 25 damage, now the monster gets to go and hits me for 25 more' .... x_x dead)
and as far as being over run and always having a healer etc being the reasons for how good the fighter has been in our group, that is wrong. there have been fights with no healer against multiple enemies and others in the party being threatened and it has still turned out the same. my fighter and the wizard fought off three groups of mounted marauders and their leader. they surrounded me and went after the wizard but in the end it turned out the same (this was also using older rules so im not sure its applicable [again])
tl;dr
big baddies are not always dragons, so while your idea for making them need to get in is good, it does not always apply.
can someone (sage) answer directly the question of monsters being able to make moves if they have been hack and slashed this turn?
your conditions for fighters shining are true, but my fighter has done just as well when all those conditions were turned against him.
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From a previous thread "Defending with Hack and Slash":
http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1520.0 (http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1520.0)
Barring specific in-fiction exceptions, the only thing Hack and Slash prevents a monster from doing is damaging the Hack and Slash-er on a 10+.
So, if the ogre hucks a rock at the mage, the fighter can't stop him with Hack and Slash. However, if the ogre punches at the fighter, a full Hack and Slash will stop him.
There's no "double jeopardy".
I do find it surprising that your Fighter had no problem being "flanked" by several foes. If he's got three higher level monsters biting at him at the same time for 10 damage each, that's pretty much a guaranteed pair of Saving Throws and 20 damage per round (before armor), unless he's doing something clever.
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I do find it surprising that your Fighter had no problem being "flanked" by several foes. If he's got three higher level monsters biting at him at the same time for 10 damage each, that's pretty much a guaranteed pair of Saving Throws and 20 damage per round (before armor), unless he's doing something clever.
It's simple. One of the 3 monsters he hacked and slashed and rolled at least a 7 (which makes it a 10 with +3 strength, rolling 7 or above is the norm).
The second and third monsters he rolls Defy Danger against as he's attempting to keep his distance and fight them off. He has to get a 6 or below on those Defy Danger rolls to take damage. Say he fails one. Bard heals him for 12 HP and he's better than where he started. Plus, there's probably only 2 foes next turn as I'm sure the first one he wounded was also hit by the Wizard.
Now, I guess you could say those other 2 monsters hit the fighter automatically, but I don't like making that hard of a move without the player blowing a roll.
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Ah, well there you go.
I'd consider that a "golden opportunity". The Fighter is fighting one monster while simultaneously keeping away from not one, but two others? How is he doing that again? I don't see it happening, not with three opponents, at least. Maybe you do.
So now he's got a choice, attack the one guy and ignore the others, or do something else.
But maybe I'm doing it wrong. Maybe it should be "Ok, you can attack, but you have to Defy Danger, with the danger being that the other two will maul your flank." (One roll, combined damage from both monsters on a fail.)
My PCs are in constant danger of dying, so I don't know what the difference is.
I guess, again only if it's really a problem, jack up the damage values. Make those few hits count.
Ugh. I don't know. Is it a flaw in the system, or just a difference in play style? I can't tell.
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Yeah I'm definitely not arguing with it could be how I'm running the fight. But I wish I could nail down what's going wrong exactly. I think that above example is perhaps one point someone could comment on - whether the Fighter should roll Defy Danger against the other two foes or not.
Upping the damage, however, really hurts the rest of the group, which is why I don't think that's a real solution.
Ludanto - what level is your group's Fighter and did he take increases to maximize his fighting ability? For example - taking two weapon fighting, increasing his own damage, etc.
Does your party also buff the fighter with magic?
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I've got to admit, my PCs, individually or as a group, are far from optimized killing machines. Maybe we're on either ends of an extreme.
That said, if I were having the same problems I would definitely up the damage. If that's a significant threat to the rest of the party, "Oh, well." One or more of them better start Defending!
Maybe not all of the time, but certainly for the boss battle. (Maybe Show Signs of Doom so they aren't caught off-guard. Of course, if that "sign of doom" is half of the Fighter's HPs, all the better. ;))
My duergar champion, facing 2nd and 3rd level characters, does 10 damage, and 18 damage when he's "giant sized". Throw in +6 damage on a failed Saving Throw, and he had both the Paladin and the Fighter really worried.
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@ludanto: i read that defending with hack and slash completely differently than you it seems. i read it as hack and slash not preventing the monsters from attacking players that do moves that put them at risk or incur damage against them. it seems that you read it as the monster still acts autonomously even though there is a hero with a big weapon standing in its way and beating on it...
as far as multiple monsters, i dont know that agony has thrown multiple monsters that were two higher levels than my fighter at us. i dont think that he has... and even so, saving throws are pretty easy for a halfling fighter...
i dont think that telling a fighter "if you fight one of the enemies you will automatically take damage from the other two" is a good way to run a fight. it pretty much auto gimps the fighter from doing what they are supposed to do, fight. as far as fighting one thing while keeping out of the range of two others... have you watched any kung fu? happens all the time in that. just find some jackie chan vids!
in your situation, at level 3 i was sitting at 36hp(good rolls at the time, but now pretty much every fighter will have about that much) and soaking 3 damage a hit (now it would be 2 as plate mail had its armor value decreased) so it would take you king boss monster 3 hits to actually kill me. if i am attacking it i can guarantee i wont be taking damage most turns (+3 str mod) and if i do i have a +3 to saving throw because i am a halfling fighter. (this is also assuming its level 5, not just 4. or if you fighter has taken the move, it might have to be level 6...) if you are going to be attacking the squishies over my head, its still not tht big of a deal to defend once every three turns to take damage for someone else. if you have anyone who can heal, i dont see how that fight is challenging...
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I totally understand what you're saying, but that's why there's the "Defend" Move. Otherwise, you mostly wouldn't need it.
That is, "if you do it, you do it".
GM: "The ogre attacks the Wizard!"
Fighter: "No! I attack the ogre!"
GM: "So, you're Defending the Wizard?"
Fighter: "No, I'm just attacking the ogre so he can't get to the Wizard."
GM: "So... You're Defending the Wizard. Roll +CON."
Besides, it's not like there's any kind of initiative. Who says that the ogre doesn't push past the Fighter and attack the Wizard before the Fighter attacks the ogre?
And why are you "defending every three turns"? There's no "turns". Those monsters (might be) constantly trying to smash that pesky Bard so he'll stop healing you. If you do anything but Defend the Bard, he's on his own.
And yes, maybe the Fighter should be able to Defy Danger to fend off extra foes. Great! Let him. He's one guy, and he can't be everywhere at once. Wait for somebody to fail a Move, then "Separate Them", "Turn the Environment Against Them", "Put Someone in a Spot", possibly "Reveal an Unwelcome Truth".
If the players have a "system", get in there and break it. If the Bard gets dragged off, or the Fighter ends up at the bottom of the cliff while everybody else is up top, then there's trouble.
You'll notice the confident, matter-of-fact way that I'm stating this. That's because I actually have no idea. But it sounds like it ought to work, so maybe there's something to it. :)
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ahh, it seems as though the flow of play between our group and yours is pretty different. usually when we play the PCs all do their moves then any remaining monsters will do monster moves and back and forth making a 'turn' if you will. why i said thee turns was if you get a 10+ on defend you get 3 hold, spend one every time the bard would get bashed and you only have to defend once every three attacks.
your narrative also supposes that everyone else in the group will keel over dead at the slightest touch. this isnt really true. in our party my fighter is the easiest person to hit at a +1 dex mod, everyone else has at least +2 giving them a rather good chance at passing a defy danger roll. even if they do fail, they can take a few hits and be no worse for it.
and, if you look back to agony's math from the first post, it is very hard for someone to fail a roll which they are built to make.
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unless the dragon can make other moves its pretty much locked down from there until the end of the fight.
Of course the dragon can make other moves when someone is hack-and-slashing it. The dragon does whatever it does. The Fighter does whatever he does in response. Based on those fictional actions taken you figure out what moves to roll next.
This is what I meant by the danger of "running a fight," in my post way up above. Going in "turns", treating moves as mechanics-first, etc. etc. That's the root of the problem here.
(and if it can still attack playing a melee character is now suicidal 'i roll a 9 to hack and slash and take 25 damage, now the monster gets to go and hits me for 25 more' .... x_x dead)
Hang on. That's not how it works. The GM says what the dragon does, then asks what you do in response. The GM doesn't just say, "The dragon attacks, take 25 damage." The GM says the concrete, fictional action the dragon takes, then asks the player(s) what they do. Based on those two factors, a move might be called for (or it might not).
That's, like, the core of the game.
The same thing goes for the Fighter flanked by three foes, or the Bard trying to cast healing spells for the entire fight while under duress, or anything else in the game. You can't treat anything as mechanics-first, or you head off down this weird path that your group is currently on.
"I hack-and-slashed it with a 10+, so now it doesn't get to do anything" is not a rule. "I hack-and-slashed the group, so now I don't have to defy danger when those guys flank me," is not a rule.
The rule is: when you do it, you roll it. Period. The mechanics that have been used previously do not factor into it.
I suspect that's 50% of it. The other, related part is the GM failing to take enough actions for the monsters. Just like the PCs, the monsters get to do things -- even if someone hits them with hack and slash with a 10+. That doesn't "freeze" anything. Why would it? The PCs get to do things after they get hit. Monsters are the same.
Those six goblins gets to do six things, potentially. That's a lot of shit to deal with! Far from the walk in the park that it seems to be for your group.
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Im not suggesting that it would freeze, but it seems somewhat realistic that if you were engaged in a fight with someone your attention would be focused on that immediate fight. i see hack and slash as a character swinging their sword at something which, if at least moderately successful, could very easily keep its focus as well. (you have to pay attention to the guy with the sword if you want to maybe not get hit by it). just the way i have always seen it.
so you are saying that the PCs have a more reactionary role in DW? the DM describes what the monsters are doing and the PCs react accordingly? or i am misinterpreting what you wrote?
i never once said that hack and slash against one group made it so others could not do anything. and, to be fair, often in the earlier stages of our game (with the old rules) a hack and slash at 10+ did mean the monster didnt get to do anything because it was dead.... but that has thankfully been fixed.
hypothetical situation time. DM says the Ogre is attacking the fighter, the fighter wants to hack and slash. what rolls are made? would the entire thing get condensed into one hack and slash or would the fighter have to defy danger and hack and slash?
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John, you're absolutely right that is where the hangup is.
I understand fiction first, our group totally rocks Apocalypse World but for some reason we (or maybe just I - since i'm the GM) don't get DW it seems.
We also don't (or at least when started out playing DW) actually take turns. Usually I go haphazardly around the table asking what the characters do, not in a specific order. Typically I ask whoevers in the most danger what they do first.
Then I typically say what the monster(s) does. The order may be messed with but I still make sure no one is excluded. To me, it would be bogus to have one PC go, threaten a different PC, have yet another PC go, and then threaten another PC so that in the fiction the Goblin is leaping forward and stabbing multiple before a PC gets to go once. So we have "fiction" turns if that makes sense. No initiative or anything like that.
One of the problems was that Hack and Slash seems to automatically point towards the fiction of the monster attacking, at least in part to where it can't threaten the PC who performed the Hack and Slash. We've played it loose where the monster can still go after someone else and I have certainly threatened all of the group's participants at different points but it's very easy for them to avoid danger with everyone having at least +2 dex.
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Okay. Please do keep in mind that I'm guessing in the dark here, just based on my reading of your posts. I could be way off! I'm not trying to be "right" (Internet discussion so easily swings that way) -- I just want to keep banging my drum in case it's helpful. If you already have this stuff figured out, then feel free to ignore it.
But, if you say you're doing everything the way we're doing it, and we're still having roughly opposite results... I don't know what to say.
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@evilben
Ok, I see what you're getting at here.
Ogre attacks Wizard. Fighter H&S ogre. Maybe they trade damage. Ogre damages Wizard.
vs.
Ogre attacks Fighter. Fighter H&S ogre. Maybe they trade damage. Ogre damages Fighter(?).
It doesn't not say that. True.
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I think it would be enormously beneficial to post some extended combat examples from our play. I'll try and do that when I get home from work tonight.
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Sorry to come to this thread so late. The combination of real life stuff and getting logistics nailed down made me completely miss this thread. As usual, John has some smart things to say. I think over the course of Dungeon World I've discovered a lot of what he means.
Early on, there were some attempts in my playstyle and in the text to add a concept of rounds. That is, categorically, the wrong way to play this game. (Other games can totally work that way, certainly.) The thing to really embrace is that for something to be dangerous, it first and foremost has to be fictionally dangerous.
I'm working on some extended examples now which should make it into the PDF soon, but here's a few quick thoughts - please feel free to prod me for more information on any of them.
-Dungeon World fights are never wars of attrition. A monster without a strong fictional position doesn't last long.
-Monsters are bullets, and you have infinite ammo. Never mourn the loss of a monster, you have as many more as you can imagine.
-Death is maybe the least interesting threat. It's also mechanically somewhat unlikely. Don't take "how close are the players to dying?" as your guage of challenge.
-The fictional things a monster does are far more interesting than the amount of damage, and are limited only by your imagination.
-Action flows like a movie in DW. Think like a cinematographer (not a director): focus where the action is, follow the consequences elsewhere, get reaction shots, establish new threats.
-Don't think of a fight as any different from what you do before the first Hack and Slash or after the last HP.
-Remember to make moves whenever you need something to say. Make hard moves when a golden opportunity (including a miss) comes up.
We had a high level playtest last weekend, including a dragon fight. We had a great time, largely because the foes were, fictionally, well positioned. When the demons with flaming whips struck from within the Dragonsbane temple, the biggest issue wasn't their damage, it was that they could effectively attack at any range with their flexible whips. The only time anyone got close enough to the dragon to make a melee attack was when they were grasped in its claws.
This is probably a bit rambly, as I'm writing pretty late, but there's one last thought I want to get out. Dungeon World and AW both work very well when you move between players like the action sequences in a great movie.
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hypothetical situation time. DM says the Ogre is attacking the fighter, the fighter wants to hack and slash. what rolls are made? would the entire thing get condensed into one hack and slash or would the fighter have to defy danger and hack and slash?
I imagine it would go down like this:
GM: "The ogre grits its teeth and hauls its massive, knobby club up above its head and as it starts to come down, you can feel the weight of the club forcing its way through the air. It's about to come down onto your head. What do you do?"
Player: "I hack and slash."
GM: "Cool, how do you do that?"
Player: "I lunge at the ogre and try to split its shin bone with my axe!"
GM: "So you're just going to suck up that club swing?"
Player: "Oh, heck no. I'm going to duck out of the way of that first, and then lunge."
GM: "That sounds like defying danger to me. You're acting despite an imminent threat. Let's see the roll."
And, then from there, the outcome of the defying danger will determine what happens next. Maybe the player's character defies the danger and gets to split the shin of the ogre. Maybe the player's character fails and gets clobbered by the club. Now he can't really lunge can he? He may have been knocked down or maybe dropped his sword, etc. Or, some other ugly choice or worse outcome.
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Michael's response is great! That said, there's many other ways it could play out, based on the exact fiction in play. "Attacking the fighter" and "fighter wants to hack and slash" aren't exact enough to transform into actual play, because they're not fictional things. What does the fighter (not the player) actually attempt? Michael provided one example of that, there are infinitely more.
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Michael's response is great! That said, there's many other ways it could play out, based on the exact fiction in play. "Attacking the fighter" and "fighter wants to hack and slash" aren't exact enough to transform into actual play, because they're not fictional things. What does the fighter (not the player) actually attempt? Michael provided one example of that, there are infinitely more.
Indeed. The key thing was asking, "What are you doing?" and "Cool, how do you do that?"
As you and many others (notably John Harper, over and over again) have said, those questions and the specific details of the fiction is what is going to push play forward and make the best use out of the rules (just like in AW).
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This probably misses the point, but I have to ask for my own understanding:
If the Fighter chose to "suck up that club swing", would he suffer the consequences (probably damage at least) and then Hack and Slash (if he's able)? Doesn't Hack and Slash normally account for that sort of thing?
If he described bashing the club aside with his shield as he made for the ogre's shin with his axe, would that avert Defy Danger, rolling it all into Hack and Slash instead?
Did the Fighter have to Defy Danger because the description of the clubbing was so imminent? If the description of the ogre's attack had stopped at "hauls its massive, knobby club up above its head" would the Fighter have had to Defy Danger then? Was it because one Move was "harder" than the other?
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This probably misses the point, but I have to ask for my own understanding:
If the Fighter chose to "suck up that club swing", would he suffer the consequences (probably damage at least) and then Hack and Slash (if he's able)? Doesn't Hack and Slash normally account for that sort of thing?
I guess it depends on what the GM decides are the consequences of sucking it up. In my opinion, sucking up an ogre's club is a perfect time for a hard move. But, the move will determine what happens next, right? Like, I can't know if he can Hack and Slash unless I know what the GM's move is. If it's just crushing damage, then maybe, yeah, he can still try to Hack and Slash, but maybe instead it's something that puts him in a position where he can't Hack and Slash. I don't know.
If he described bashing the club aside with his shield as he made for the ogre's shin with his axe, would that avert Defy Danger, rolling it all into Hack and Slash instead?
Bashing the club aside is "acting despite an imminent threat" still right? To do it, do it. If you do it, you do it.
So, him blocking the club is acting in the face of imminent danger, imo. So, no, he'd still roll to Defy Danger.
Hack and Slash is, "when you attack an enemy in melee". So, we have to figure out if the Fighter bashes the club aside before he can attack right?
If he just wants to Hack and Slash, he needs to fictionally set that up.
Did the Fighter have to Defy Danger because the description of the clubbing was so imminent? If the description of the ogre's attack had stopped at "hauls its massive, knobby club up above its head" would the Fighter have had to Defy Danger then? Was it because one Move was "harder" than the other?
In your example, where the ogre is just "hauling it above its head", what happens next? The ogre just holds it up there?
Is the ogre hauling his club up imminent danger? I guess you as the GM need to decide that. If the ogre is just stretching his arms, it's not much imminent danger is it?
If he's planning to bring the club down on the Fighter's head, well, it's imminent danger. Giving the description is just misdirection and not speaking your move's name. Announcing impending doom needs to have teeth right?
"The ogre, yawning, lazily starts to lift his club... what do you do?"
"The ogre snatches up his club and starts to swing... what do you do?"
Your description evokes what's about to happen next. It's a way to develop a tempo with the fiction. And, I think it wanes and waxes depending on the situation and need of the game at that particular moment.
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So, the key point here is that Hack and Slash is (almost?) entirely non-reactive. It's the move for aggressors. If the enemy does something, and all you do is attack, then it happens first, and then you attack.
I think I get it now, though it's a paradigm shift for me. Probably an important one, though, and I can see how it perhaps ties in better with the fiction.
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But Hack and Slash seems to encode the defender striking back, doesn't it?
So that would include a threat of danger already? Making the Fighter also roll to Defy Danger would seem to be somewhat unfair.
I think that's what Ludanto is saying and that is why the Fighter is so beastly in our games. We play that Hack and Slash includes Defying the monster's attack (as the move implies) so the fact that a Fighter will get a 10+ 60% of the time means that he doesn't take damage very often. That's really the essence of my original post.
By the way, sorry for the lack of extended examples of our combat - I've been busy and lasy with other stuff and couldn't find the motivation to type out a long combat.
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@agony,
I think Michael's sold me. The "opponent striking you" and the "opponent striking back" are two different things.
That is, taking damage from Hack & Slash is a result of the player's Move, the Hack & Slash. It has nothing to do with the GM's Move of "Showing Signs of Doom (damage from a club)".
The best the Fighter can do in this case is not give the opponent a chance to act. If he attacks at first sight and manages to avoid missing, the opponent is relegated to basically "defending itself". Otherwise, it makes a Move, which might involve threatening/inflicting damage.
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i think this is what i am hung up on as well. the encoded part of hack and slash that deals damage back to the fighter gives the move the feel that the target is fighting back (hence all the confusion about weather it can do anything else or not, i always assumed the target was fighting back and thus occupying its attention). at least with the damage numbers that we have been playing with, the ability for the fighter to take damage twice in a single 'round' makes attacking while being attacked a very suicidal enterprise.
@ludanto: by that reasoning then we get back to the track of the fighter hack and slashing to keep the monster locked down while the rest of the party has their way with tea parties and such.
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But Hack and Slash seems to encode the defender striking back, doesn't it?
So that would include a threat of danger already? Making the Fighter also roll to Defy Danger would seem to be somewhat unfair.
It depends on what's happening. In my example, and some others give, like having to maneuver close to a dragon to attack it in melee, the Fighter needed to Defy Danger just to get into a position to Hack and Slash.
That's how moves work. They snowball. It's not just a back and forth: Round 1, you hack and slash, the monster attacks, Round 2, you hack and slash, the monster attacks... etc.
Also, offensive moves are about cadence too. So, you Hack and Slash, and the Ogre gets to hit back right? But, the cadence for that description goes right back to the Fighter to react, doesn't it?
Player: "I hack and slash..."
GM: "Cool, how?"
Player: "I cut into the Ogre's shin with my axe." *rolls 7-9*
GM: "Your axe cleaves into the Ogre's shin and it howls in rage. Fire lights in its eyes and the giant slams his huge fist into your chest. (take damage)"
At that point, the GM can say, "What do you do?"
And, it's back to the Fighter. The situation has changed of course (cause he's hurt now, or maybe his allies are doing stuff...).
The interesting this is, on a 10+, even though the Fighter hasn't taken any damage, he has suddenly just shifted initiative to the GM to make a move (likely, announce impending doom).
Like this:
Player: "I hack and slash..."
GM: "Cool, how?"
Player: "I cut into the Ogre's shin with my axe." *rolls 10+*
GM: "Your axe cleaves into the Ogre's shin and it howls in rage. (Hack and Slash resolved) The Ogre looks at your puny axe and you can see his animosity toward the tiny thing. He starts to reach for it, as if to take it away from you! What do you do?"
I think that's what Ludanto is saying and that is why the Fighter is so beastly in our games. We play that Hack and Slash includes Defying the monster's attack (as the move implies) so the fact that a Fighter will get a 10+ 60% of the time means that he doesn't take damage very often. That's really the essence of my original post.
I don't read the move that way. The monster doesn't only act within the confines of the mechanics of the moves. If your fighter is standing there, and I say, "The dragon's nostrils flair up and fire and smoke flicker from them! What do you do?" If he's just like, "I attack it!" I'm going to be like, "Sure, but it's about to breathe fire, you'll be exposed entirely. Are you sure you don't want to react to that?"
He doesn't get to cancel out the fiction because he's attacking. How I read Hack and Slash is, when you attack an enemy in melee, you're initiating combat with them. You both are going at each other, and you're both dealing damage. If you score 10+, you have the option to mitigate the damage or deal more damage.
You're not Defying anything, because by definition you are initiating a sequence of back and forth attacks.
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Maybe this will help make it a little clearer: In Michael's example, I read the initial bit as the GM making a move for whatever reason - probably just because everyone looked at him to see what happened, but maybe even due to a failed roll.
The GM establishes a fictional thing: The ogre's about to smash you! What do you do?
The player can't just ignore the established fiction and Hack and Slash. At the least he has to accept that an ogre just bashed him and take the consequences.
The ogre is doing something, to which the player may or may not react. After that, the player might do something like Hack and Slash. If the player gets a 7-9, that might mean that he's opened himself up to another attack from the ogre - uh oh!
If Michael's example didn't start with the ogre swinging, the player could Hack and Slash no problem. The defining characteristic is that we know, fictionally, that the ogre as a swing in motion to the fighter. If the fighter sucks it up it might play like this:
Player: (Thinks for a second, realizes that he has +1 forward now and would rather save it for the attack) "Whatever, I take it. I bring my shield up to deflect it while attack up under his defenses."
GM: "Okay, X damage as the tree trunk the ogre is wielding bounces off your shield. It sounds like you're Hack and Slashing then?"
Player: "Hell yeah! Dang, even with the +1 I got a 9. "
GM: "Well, you deal your damage, but the ogre gets in a strike too. You get in under his defenses sure enough, but after you slice him he flinches away and brings his knee up into you, X damage."
If the situation started differently, say with the ogre attacking someone else, it might play out like this:
GM: "The ogre smiles as he knocks you off your feet and you go sailing a few feet through the air, landing on your back against the edge of the cliff. The ogre starts moving towards you, smacking his club against his hand. Ajax, what are you doing while Omar is getting whalloped?"
Player: "The goblins are dead now, so I'm focusing on saving Omar. I step between him and the ogre and slash at the ogre's legs, try to make him less mobile."
GM: "Sounds like hack and slash to me."
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@evilben
If the monster does something to somebody else, and the Fighter has the luxury of having the time to react with H&S, one of two things happens:
Either the monster takes a poke at the Fighter as it moves past, damaging him on a 7-9, or the monsters doesn't do any damage to the Fighter because it was intentionally ignoring him to get to the other PC, thus inflicting its "0 Damage" on a 7-9.
As usual, much depends on the fiction. Depending on how awesome they are, maybe some monsters don't need to "concentrate" to give a PC the beat-down as they stroll/charge/lope across the battlefield toward the McGuffin of DOOOOOM!
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Cross-posting a lot here, but quick note on the "lock down" aspect: remember that you make moves (soft ones) whenever anyone looks at you to find out what happens. So the fighter hack and slashes, gets a 10+, and then it's pretty clear that its your turn in the conversation of play: the fighter's looking at you to find out what the monster does in response. So you say "The ogre staggers back a step, sees blood spilling from the wound you left, and gets this scary-mad look in his eyes, he's going berserk. He turns to the column next to him and starts smashing it, it looks like he's bringing down the ceiling. What do you do?"
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Player: "The goblins are dead now, so I'm focusing on saving Omar. I step between him and the ogre and slash at the ogre's legs, try to make him less mobile."
GM: "Sounds like hack and slash to me."
Or, GM: "Sounds like defend to me."
Depending on whether the Player wants to redirect the Ogre to him, or just try to kill the Ogre before it can get to Omar.
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Cross-posting a lot here, but quick note on the "lock down" aspect: remember that you make moves (soft ones) whenever anyone looks at you to find out what happens. So the fighter hack and slashes, gets a 10+, and then it's pretty clear that its your turn in the conversation of play: the fighter's looking at you to find out what the monster does in response. So you say "The ogre staggers back a step, sees blood spilling from the wound you left, and gets this scary-mad look in his eyes, he's going berserk. He turns to the column next to him and starts smashing it, it looks like he's bringing down the ceiling. What do you do?"
Oooh! I like this one.
In this case, if the Fighter responded with:
Player: "I charge the Ogre and drive my sword into it's spine before it can bring the place down."
Would that be:
Hack and Slash - attacking in melee?
Defend - standing in defense of the location?
Defying Danger - preventing the ceiling from coming down?
Hmmm.
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Would that be:
Hack and Slash - attacking in melee?
Defend - standing in defense of the location?
Defying Danger - preventing the ceiling from coming down?
Hmmm.
Aha! You thought you had me with this one!
Defend! (Probably)
If the ogre ignores you, it's not H&S.
Defying Danger is only useful here if whatever he does on the other side of it stops the ogre/cieling.
So, Defend. ;)
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It's interesting that I'm not finding a "Get someone to do something you want by force..." move.
And, Hack and Slash is so generic (attack someone in melee) that it could be applicable to any number of other moves (I'm attacking to Defend, I'm attacking to Defy Danger, etc.).
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in this case i would say it would be hack and slash. you are proactively attacking the ogre in melee(driving you sword into its spine)
while i do appreciate the story aspects of this game the mechanics need to be taken into account as well. if, in this situation, you were to:
a) defend; you could protect someone from taking damage (okay this makes sense if the ceiling is falling, but it currently isnt, the ogre is trying to bring it down)
b) defy danger; prevent youself from taking damage (again if the ceiling was in the middle of falling i say this would be great, but again the ceiling isnt falling yet)
hack and slash is the only move that can do anything in this situation (of the three) the fiction should never dictate you do a useless move. if you want to stop the ogre by driving a sword into its spine, that is clearly an attack. the results you want to get from attack it, that is different.
a "get something you want by force" move would be great, but if the feel of the game is supposed to be like DnD that is usually done by hitting something with your sword. if one did exist it would generate a lot of conversation about just what can you force to do something you want? (walk in on a dragon, make it do something by force! how? ummm, hit it with my sword until it submits! how? etc etc etc)
i still do not feel at ease with hack and slash's ability to take damage twice in a round. maybe this is because we have routinely fought things that do half on my total hp per hit but it seems like it makes melee a very very dangerous option. if hack and slash is not meant to be a joined combat between two agents then i feel like the outcome for a partial hit should not be take damage but rather a set of inconveniences like casing spells or volley.
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i still do not feel at ease with hack and slash's ability to take damage twice in a round.
I don't think there are rounds in DW.
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Well, you know, you've got the whole conversation going so there's no "gotcha".
If you say you're stabbing the ogre, the GM should make it clear that unless your damage is enough to kill it (no roll since the ogre isn't "ready") that the ceiling will come down.
(And Defend would work because you can Defend a "place".)
As for Hack & Slash, don't think of it as taking damage twice. It's taking damage two different times from two different events. If the Fighter stands there and waits to see what the monster will do, he's being "defensive" and will need to Defy Danger when it inevitably attacks. Once the monster's intent is displayed, the Fighter can merrily Hack & Slash at it until he screws up or decides to stop and watch the monster again.
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despite the insistence that there are no rounds there still has to be some sort of turn taking or exchange. if you insist on taking the word 'round' in the literal dungeons and dragons initiative sense, fine.
i am fairly certain you know full well what i meant by that statement but i will clarify it for you anyway.
i do not feel at ease with the way hack and slash mandates damage being dealt back to the hack and slasher on a partial success so in the instance where a monster or other type of adversary is attacking one of the adventurers and the adventurer desires to fight back the adventurer has the opportunity to take damage twice from one narrative situation. the situation being the adversary and the adventurer join in single combat.
better?
@ludanto: from what ive gathered from this conversation, hack and slash does not prevent the monster from taking moves. so if hack and slash just prevents the monster from taking moves against the fighter (if the fighter rolls a 7-9, it seems a 10+ really doesnt do anything to the monsters move selection) all you are doing is forcing the monster to attack someone else. something that probably is not desirable.
i really think the solution to this whole predicament is to change hack and slash so taking damage is not the mandated result of a partial success. give the move options like volley and cast a spell. sure leave take damage on there but do not mandate it.
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despite the insistence that there are no rounds there still has to be some sort of turn taking or exchange. if you insist on taking the word 'round' in the literal dungeons and dragons initiative sense, fine.
i am fairly certain you know full well what i meant by that statement but i will clarify it for you anyway.
i do not feel at ease with the way hack and slash mandates damage being dealt back to the hack and slasher on a partial success so in the instance where a monster or other type of adversary is attacking one of the adventurers and the adventurer desires to fight back the adventurer has the opportunity to take damage twice from one narrative situation. the situation being the adversary and the adventurer join in single combat.
better?
I think you're missing the part earlier where I talked about the cadence of the fiction and moves.
It's something I didn't "get" when I first started playing AW. Eventually, you realize it's there, built into the moves.
But, go back and read my post a page or two back, where I use Hack and Slash in two different examples, one with a 10+ and one with a 7-9.
There's a back and forth there that you might be thinking about when you refer to "rounds". Honestly, it's just a conversational rhythm in AW and I presume the same for DW.
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So the MC doesn’t get to roll right? The MC makes moves and the player makes moves.
The fact that H&S has a potential result of taking damage is part of the move, right?
So the ogre makes a move, which the player responds to (defend, defy danger, whatever), and then the player makes a move.
Now, that isn’t to say that the ogre gets to ‘attack’ every ‘round’. But it would be totally boring to me as a player and an MC if all that was happening was H&S. So the ogre, I think, should get to ‘do’ stuff. The example feels like a 'surprise round' to me. Now I would be mad if all the MC had the ogre do is ‘attack’, I want the ogre to knock over pillars or try to disarm my guy or whatever.
Maybe it would help to think about it this way: if the MC were allowed to roll dice, the MC would be making the H&S move too, right? So both could potentially take damage twice a ‘round’. Yeah?
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yes, ive read your posts. your slight dismissive of my entire post over a single choice of words is rather irritating, though. i understand that are not rounds in the your turn my turn sense of other games, that has been established through pages of discussion earlier in this post by you and others and, i will admit, it is something that we have been doing wrong.
as per your examples of hack and slash with 7-9 and 10+ on the previous page, the 7-9 exchange leaves you in the situation that agony first started this whole thread about. if the 'flow of combat' hinges on the hero who is hack and slashing as long as a 7-9 is rolled then the monster is effectively 'locked down' (the fighter brings his axe into the ogres shin and gets a knee to the spleen for his efforts, fighter gets to make the next move) the only way this is broken is if the DM/MC makes another move with the monster.
on the flip side, if the monster has the initiative (in a narrative sense so i do get 'there is no initiative in DW') and is attacking the fighter the fighter can respond in several ways; defend, defy danger, hack and slash. if the fighter defends or defies danger then the flow of the narrative will stay with the monster until something special happens, if the fighter decides to engage the monster with hack and slash then what happens? does the fighter:
a) roll defy danger then hack and slash
b) roll hack and slash and a defy danger
c) roll hack and slash and a defy danger on a 10+ and 6- result?
and again, i think this would be fine if taking damage was not the only option for getting a 7-9 on hack and slash.
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yes, ive read your posts. your slight dismissive of my entire post over a single choice of words is rather irritating, though.
Hey, bud, I'm not being dismissive and sorry if it came out that way. You seem agitated with me, so I'll let someone else pick up the torch. ;)
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i was rather irritated, but i get over things like that quickly. i am truly interested on how you would handle the situation i posed in my last post though. as i said, we had been doing combat all wrong prior to this discussion thread and i am trying to feel out how it should work in the confines of dungeon world.
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if the fighter decides to engage the monster with hack and slash then what happens? does the fighter:
a) roll defy danger then hack and slash
b) roll hack and slash and a defy danger
c) roll hack and slash and a defy danger on a 10+ and 6- result?
Option 'b' for me. Moves Snowball. You defy the surprise round attack of the ogre and then try to stab the monster.
If the ogre trips your character, you can still roll to defy danger to stand up and hack & slash in the same round.
Like I said in my earlier post: if all that was happening in the fight was Hack & Slash, I'd be pretty bored. I want the fight to be full of neat action.
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It's all about the fiction! There's no single answer.
I'm writing up some detailed examples that will hopefully answer the question. Give me a few minutes and I'll post them.
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So examples with the ogre:
The MC makes a ‘soft move’ and says, “the ogre raises its club to smash you to jelly. What do you do?”
Two options are: you take the hit and make your Hack & Slash move or you Defy Danger and if you are successful you can make your Hack & Slash.
Why would you want to just ‘take the hit’? Because if you fail you might not get to H&S, because now the MC gets to make a ‘hard move’.
The MC always gets to make 'soft moves' like announcing danger, and only makes 'hard moves' like hurting a character when the dice roll fails.
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Or, when the player hands him a Golden Opportunity, like letting an ogre hit him with a club. ;)
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The fiction -- and ONLY the fiction -- kicks off the moves.
The ogre brings its club down on the fighter. I ask, "What do you do?"
The thing the player of the Fighter says next determines what move (if any) he will make. There is no "rule" that says he must Defy Danger now. Or must Hack and Slash. There are no rules at all about how moves occur and snowball except, "when you do it, you roll it."
I'm seeing a lot of systematic thinking going on here, with sweeping generalizations. "If the Fighter always has to roll Defy Danger and Hack and Slash, then blah blah blah." No. There is no "always." There is no "combat system" that you employ over and over again. Each moment is unique and must be examined (possibly in fine detail) fictionally in order to determine the moves that are rolled.
Here are some examples of how this moment might play out. Notice how the fiction (especially the group's unique local understanding of the qualities of their dungeon world) is critical to determining the moves in play.
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Defy Danger + Roll Damage
"The ogre's massive club -- actually an uprooted oak tree -- comes crashing down at your head. What do you do?"
"I turn it aside with my shield, and drive my spear up into the monster's throat."
"Really? You turn aside a tree with your shield? It's like you're being hit by a car."
"Oh! It's like that? Wow, okay, I guess ogres are crazy strong. I wasn't thinking of it like that. No, I can't use my shield against a car crash. I guess I better get out of the way, then. Defy danger?"
"Yeah, that sounds right. How do you do that?"
"I roll to the side, sliding on my shield a bit, keeping my spear pointed right at the ogre."
(rolls, gets a 10+)
"The ogre's club crashes down, but you roll aside. The stone floor tiles shatter under the impact, and the club sinks a few inches into the soft earth beneath. The ogre roars."
"Ha! Too slow, sucker! I drive the spear right into his face. Is that hack and slash?"
"Nope. The ogre's weapon isn't ready, and you're out of reach since you're using your spear. It's not a melee. You just stab him. Roll your damage!"
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Hack and Slash
"The ogre's massive club -- actually an uprooted oak tree -- comes crashing down at your head. What do you do?"
"I turn it aside with my shield, and drive my spear up into the monster's throat."
"Really? You turn aside a tree with your shield? It's like you're being hit by a car."
"Wait, but I'm like, a fantasy hero, right? Can't we do stuff like that?"
"Hmmm. I guess we should decide that. You guys think the PCs should be more epic? Yeah? Okay, that works for me. You can totally turn aside a crashing tree trunk with your shield. That's pretty badass."
"Yeah, awesome! So, I'm blocking and counter-attacking here... that's hack and slash. It's a melee."
"Yep, definitely. Roll it."
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Defy Danger + Hack and Slash
"The ogre's massive club -- actually an uprooted oak tree -- comes crashing down at your head. What do you do?"
"Uh. A tree trunk? Shit. I jump out of the way! That's defy danger... right? Damn, an 8."
"The tree narrowly misses your head as you jump aside, but it hits your spear, shattering it to splinters. What do you do?"
"Crap! Well, I still have my shield, and it's got a wicked spike on it, remember? I roll, leap up, and smash the spike into the ogre's knee!"
"Oooh, ouch. That'll hurt. The ogre's club isn't ready to swing again, so he lets it go and reaches out to catch the shield before the spike impales him. It's a melee. Roll hack and slash."
"Can't I get in there before he can react?"
"Hmmm. If he was trying to swing the club again, yeah, definitely. But he's dropping the club and going straight to wrestling, so I think it's a melee."
"Okay, yeah, I can see that."
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I could go on. Like Sage said, there are an infinite number of ways that could go down, depending greatly on the fictional situation. And I haven't even included terrain issues (a tight tunnel vs. open chamber changes things dramatically) or the presence of other monsters/hazards, or lighting conditions (sometimes you have to drop your torch to fight), etc. etc.
In your game, maybe ogres aren't so scary-strong, and their clubs are just regular clubs. That changes everything! The fiction comes first, and the moves must always flow from it.
The amount of fictional stuff you account for is something that the group will fine-tune as play goes along. But if the amount is "barely any" then you'll find the game starts to fight you, and doesn't entirely work right, which I think you're starting to see.
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attacking the fighter the fighter can respond in several ways; defend, defy danger, hack and slash. if the fighter defends or defies danger then the flow of the narrative will stay with the monster until something special happens, if the fighter decides to engage the monster with hack and slash then what happens? does the fighter:
a) roll defy danger then hack and slash
b) roll hack and slash and a defy danger
c) roll hack and slash and a defy danger on a 10+ and 6- result?
and again, i think this would be fine if taking damage was not the only option for getting a 7-9 on hack and slash.
I think that's a false choice. The fighter says what they, fictionally, do. Is that a move? That's to be decided in the moment, based on the shared understanding of the fiction (see some great examples of that in John's post above). If a move applies, its a move. If it doesn't, the GM just describes the results, according to their agenda, principles, and moves.
Someone upthread mentioned forcing the ogre to stop knocking over the column. There isn't a move directly for that, but there are many ways you could attempt it, and moves would kick in as intended. If you pose a serious threat to the ogre and he can understand you, you might be able to parley him down: "Get away from that pillar or my blades will be drenched in your blood, foul beast." Remember that parley requires leverage; the ogre has to care about its safety and consider you a serious threat to it.
You might physically step between: "I dash over to the pillar before he can strike again, I want to make sure his next blow hits me." This again depends somewhat on everyone's fictional understanding of the situation. If the ogre has a tree trunk and heroes can't take tree trunk hits, that's no Defend. If its understood that a human can lock a ogre's club, it's Defend.
You might pull some crazy plan: "I've got rope in my adventurer's kit, I'm going to lasso me a ogre and pull him back from the pillar." The players look to the GM to see how that goes, so the GM is definitely making a move. If fictionally an ogre is the right size and strength that this makes some sense, a reasonable move might be to put them in a spot. Not too tough of one, this is a soft move after all: "You get a rope around it's neck, and it immediately goes crazy. It's fighting your pull and dragging you towards it, trying to fling you around the room like a yo-yo. I think you're Defying a lot of Danger to pull him back."
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Why would you want to just ‘take the hit’?
I think that choice has to be made in the fiction, primarily. My example was not the best, I used a +1 forward to indicate some advantage the player didn't want to give up. Some better phrasings:
You might not get out of the way (let's not say Defy Danger, since we're not sure what moves might apply) because the player's in a position to strike and diving away will give that up.
You might not get out of the way because if the ogre isn't busy with you, it might be busy with the cleric standing behind you.
You might not get out of the way because you're in a tight corridor and the only way out means diving into the muck sewer below.
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i was rather irritated, but i get over things like that quickly. i am truly interested on how you would handle the situation i posed in my last post though. as i said, we had been doing combat all wrong prior to this discussion thread and i am trying to feel out how it should work in the confines of dungeon world.
Oh, it's all good, man! I could tell I wasn't getting through and that's why I let these other experts hop in and explain things.
John Harper hit the nail on the head, and like we mentioned earlier, his examples are largley focused on those two questions: "What do you do?" And, "Cool, how do you do that?"
Remember, the fiction should come first, then apply the rules.
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Here are some examples of how this moment might play out.
Awesome! Thank you John, those examples helped me a BUNCH!
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Looks like somebody else is following @olde_fortran as well. ;)
Yes, thanks for all of the help. It's really hard, but you almost have to try to forget that the Moves exist, and then act all surprised when you trigger them. There's a mind-set there that's easy (for me) to slip out of. But I'm getting better.
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Thanks, folks. ;) Glad it was helpful.
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Just wanted to stick my hand up and say, that as a guy preparing to run his first DW game this whole thread has been very helpful, many thanks to all the guys who took the time to articulate their thoughts, from both sides of the fence.
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Yes, thanks John for that and thanks everyone for responding to the original post.