Barf Forth Apocalyptica
powered by the apocalypse => Dungeon World => Topic started by: tonydowler on July 01, 2010, 06:29:46 PM
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If you're playing Apocalypse D&D, here are some new rules for spellcasting you might want to try out.
PDF version is available here: http://planet-thirteen.com/apocD&D/spellcasting%20Update.pdf (http://planet-thirteen.com/apocD&D/spellcasting%20Update.pdf), feedback is welcomed!
Instead of memorizing spells, spellcasters prepare some of their spells for faster casting. They may prepare the same number of spells they could memorize under the D&D rules, but these spells are not forgotten. With a night's rest, they can change the spells they have prepared. A spellcaster may also cast spells they have not prepared, using the Focused Casting move.
Cast a Prepared Spell
When you make a move by casting a spell you have prepared, make that move as normal. For example, if you go aggro using Magic Missile as your weapon; Make your Move using Jump; read a situation using Scry, and so on.
On a 10+: the spell works as written with no difficulties
On a 7-9: in addition to any options they already get, the DM may choose to roll on the miscast table.
On a miss, the DM decides what happens, as normal.
Focused Casting
When you take out your spellcasting accouterments and spend several minutes casting a spell you have not prepared, or cast a prepared spell without making any other move, roll dice. Magic Users and Illusionists roll +INT. Druids, Clerics, Rangers, and Paladins roll +WIS.
On a 10+: Choose one:
• Maximize dice
• Extend range, duration, or number of targets times two
• Cast covertly, without sound gesture or outward sign
On a 7-9: The spell goes off as normal, but the DM chooses one effect in addition:
• Someone’s exposed to danger
• Someone’s put in a tight spot
• Someone or something is made aware of the casting
• Roll a miscast
Miscast Table
1. The casting is accompanied by annoying, but otherwise insignificant effects like the smell of sulfur or the sound of tinkling bells.
2. The caster’s appearance or body is altered in some alarming way (but it goes away in a few hours).
3. The caster’s vicinity is visited with frightening manifestations of wild magic, divine disfavor, infernal wrath, or inimical forces of mysterious origin.
4. The caster’s appearance of body is altered in some alarming way, and it’s permanent.
5. The caster or target immediately has their mind opened to contact some higher or lower power.
6. The caster or target is incapacitated by magical feedback. Immediately take s-harm (when you take s-harm, in order to do anything but wander around in a daze, you must successfully Defy Danger).
7. The spell is accompanies by drastic and uncontrolled pyrotechnics, noise, or other distracting effects. Everyone in the area of effect must roll to Defy Danger to do anything but duck and cover for the next round.
8. The spell echoes across the eternal flows of magical essence. Every powerful magic or divine being in the vicinity senses the cast and knows who cast it.
9. The spell exposes the caster and/or allies to harm or danger as per the spell’s effect (or, if beneficial, reversed effects). Normal saving throws apply.
10. A small rift is opened in the planar fabric and something or someone comes through.
Saving Throws
When you make a saving throw, roll dice:
• If it’s paralyzation, poison, or death magic, roll +CON
• If it’s petrification or polymorph, roll +STR
• If it’s rod, staff, or wand, roll +WIS
• If it’s breath weapon, roll +DEX
• If it’s spells, roll +INT
On a 10+: You escape or resist to no ill effect
On a 7-9: You take half damage, are exposed to greater danger, or put in a tight spot.
On a miss, you suffer the full effects.
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Nice!
Although I'm not sure about having one option on the miscast table that is strictly "worse" than another (4 compared to 2). Maybe 4 should be a minor but permanent alteration, and 2 can remain the alarming but temporary one?
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This is great. Keep it up.
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Good stuff, Tony. We'll test this out next Sunday.
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I am formulating thoughts on this and should have something to post later today.
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The word you're looking for is paralysis. I'm not sure that recapitulating the language ignorance of our forebears is really...uh...forwarding your design.
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Can you elaborate Shreyas? Paralysis doesn't really tell me anything about why you think this is wrong headed.
Edit: What I mean to say is, clearly you think this is the wrong direction to go, not forwarding the design,as you say. Can you tell me more? Is it just that you think recapitulating D&D spellcasting design is a dead end, or that you think I've done it poorly?
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Ha! I suspect you are reading too much into Shreyas's comment, and that all he's really objecting to is "paralyzation", in "paralyzation, poison, or death magic".
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What Phil said is right. I think your game design is on the dot; it's just the terminology that irks me.
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Aha! Philaros, as always, sheds light on the situation! Now I'm embarrassed! I somehow thought you were applying some obscure general criticism.
Yeah, this "language of ignorance" is totally a thing that has to be dealt with, and I'm not sure I know the right answer to it.
There's a lot of difference and debate among OD&D and old-school renaissance designs regarding the "right" or "best" way of doing saving throws. I don't know the answer to this conundrum. Could be that saving throws just plain don't belong in ApocD&D. That's part of what I'm trying to figure out.
There's a deep question here regarding the old language of D&D. I don't think anything can be jettisoned without losing some bits of value. What criterion do you apply in deciding what to keep and what to toss?
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The saving throws are basically specific Suffer Harm moves, yeah? I think they would bring a lot more to the game if you gave each save category a few custom move results. As it is now, the only difference is which stat you roll against, which is sort of "eh".
Unless you're fine with a lot of spells losing potency, removing saves all together may not be a good thing.
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So here's where I'm coming from. Tony's stated that his intent "is to fully preserve the essential elements and feel of AD&D," while adapting them to the Apocalypse World system. Therefore, I think in the interest of assessing any proposed moves for spellcasting, it's useful, perhaps necessary, to consider what are the "essential elements and feel" of the AD&D magic system. For now, I want to avoid getting into the specific spells and what those tell us about magic in AD&D, and just consider the systemic elements as a whole. So, here's what AD&D tells me about magic:
- Magic is a rare talent. Not just anyone can do magic. Only a few races can become wizards, a few more can become clerics, and you have to be smart to be able to do any magic.
- Magic is difficult to learn. In AD&D, your intelligence limits what level of spells you can use and how many spells you can learn. Only the most intelligent characters, with an 18 intelligence, can cast the highest level magic user spells, and NO player character can learn all the spells available at each level without some kind of later magical augmentation, because Intelligence maxes out at 18 for everyone (except half-orcs, at 17) and a 19 Int is required to learn all the spells.
- Magic is difficult to do. You can only cast a few spells per day, depending on what level you've reached. Even if you have an 18 intelligence and therefore know a minimum of 9 spells at each level, you can never cast more than 7 spells of a given level per day, and that's only for the lower-level spells at the unheard-of caster level of 29, i.e. the mightiest wizard in the world.
- Magic on the whole is reliable. You never have to roll to cast a spell, spells never fail or are never miscast, they just work. Some spells do need to be targeted, and you can fail in that respect, but the spell itself still does happen.
- Magic however is sometimes avoidable or resistible, as the saving throw indicates.
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Now, this is what Apocalypse D&D 3.0 tells me about magic.
By default, I'm supposed to go with the AD&D rules unless something in Apocalypse D&D supersedes it. Therefore, the default assumptions are that magic is rare, difficult to learn, difficult to do, reliable, and sometimes avoidable/resistible.
Looking first at the current 3.0 draft, not the new Spellcasting rules posted above, the Cast a Spell move tells me:
- Magic is unreliable. I have to make a roll to see whether I cast the spell successfully, fail altogether, or get an unexpected result, and even if I'm successful it may still misfire.
- Magic is dangerous. The consequences of a spell misfire include possibly causing direct harm to the caster and also possibly attracting the attention (and anger) of dangerous entities.
- Magic may not be avoidable or resistible—there's no provision for saving throws, so it's unclear how to handle that.
The new spellcasting rules offer two moves. Again, the standard AD&D assumptions apply unless explicitly superseded, and the Apocalypse 3.0 assumptions that magic is unreliable and dangerous also still apply.
Cast a Prepared Spell tells me:
- Magic is difficult to do quickly and spontaneously. You are limited in how many spells you can prepare for fast casting. This replaces the regular rules for memorization.
Focused Casting tells me:
- Magic is more accessible/available than in AD&D. You can use Focused Casting to cast spells that you have in your spellbook but haven't prepared in advance for fast casting.
- Magic can be more safely and controllably cast by taking time and using the correct implements and rituals, but it's still risky and misfires can still happen.
The Miscast Table tells me:
- Magic is wildly unpredictable with potential for anything from minor annoyances to serious disaster. You should think long and hard before using magic. Isn't there a better, more reliable way you could accomplish your goals?
And the Saving Throw table tells me that yes, magic is still sometimes avoidable or resistible. This means using magic as a means for accomplishing your goals is even riskier and even less reliable than it already appears.
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Elaborating on what Phil said above - since there is a way you can fuck up your own magic, and there's a way the target can weasel out of it, as compared to all the other moves where only one participant gets to apply their stats and talents to the situation, what does magic do so well that it's worth it to do magic to people?
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So, what does all this mean for the spellcasting moves?
First, do you agree on the assessment of the essential elements and feel of AD&D magic? If that is not how you think of magic in AD&D, why not? How would you characterize it instead? If you agree that it is a fair assessment, is that what you're looking to emulate? Are there other aspects you'd rather emulate?
Second, how do you feel about the way the spellcasting moves, as they currently stand, change some of the elements and feel of AD&D magic? Are these still what you want magic to be, or do you see anything that needs adjusting? Note in particular my reaction to the combination of the Miscast Table and also having Saving Throws: miscasts have the potential to come up a lot, and combined with opponents getting saving throws, I'm going to seriously consider whether magic is a worthwhile move. The spells had better offer me some significant advantage to offset the risks.
Third, well, what about the spells? Oh man, don't even get me started on first-edition AD&D spells. Of all the editions to pick to emulate, this one's possibly the worst. So many ridiculously specific detailed limitations, restrictions, complications, and drawbacks or penalties. Suffice to say, the Apocalypse World system already builds in plenty of opportunities for getting what you want only leading to more trouble and for failing also leading to more trouble, so the less you adhere to the nitpicky details of AD&D spells, the better. After all, you do want the wizards to actually use magic, yes? So make sure it's worth their while.
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OK, just a quick note, this conversation shouldn't be about how worthwhile first edition spells are, or whether it's worthwhile to be a spellcaster.
Also, this isn't necessarily about how effective magic is, but about the wider issue of how it functions in the game, so let's stay focused on that.
Your analysis is excellent Philaros, however there are a few things to clarify. On saving throws, they apply in exactly the same situations in ApocD&D as they do in AD&D, which is when the spell descriptions say they apply. The effectiveness of ApocD&D saving throws is not the same as AD&D saving throws, however, and they don't scale by level in the same way.
That said, saving throws work very, very differently in the two games, and that's a function of the basic difference between them. Only PCs get saving throws. No monster ever gets a saving throw.
Also, note carefully that a miscast never automatically happens. It's not a penalty for a failed roll, any more than any DM move in Apocalypse World is a penalty. You're starting to think in terms of "if I try to cast a spell, I may fail!" That's D&D think. What you should be thinking is "if I roll the dice, the DM may get to make a move." Think of the miscast table in those terms. Roll on a random table is one of the DM moves. The miscast table just provides a specific instantiation of this move.
I'm also formulating some more specific thoughts around Phil's posts, but I really need to digest them more, because he's pointed out some really good realities there.
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since there is a way you can fuck up your own magic, and there's a way the target can weasel out of it, as compared to all the other moves where only one participant gets to apply their stats and talents to the situation
As a counter-argument to this point, here's something I should have thought of earlier: only players get to make rolls, which means the Saving Throw actually is not always an additional limitation on magic. A Saving Throw is a special move a player can make when threatened with magic or certain other special kinds of threats. Mechanically speaking, the only time a Saving Throw becomes a further limitation making magic riskier and less reliable is when one player is attempting to use magic on another player. Opponents controlled by the GM would never get Saving Throws, because the GM never rolls dice.
So that again calls into question whether there's any need to have a Saving Throw move. The GM only gets to make moves in response to player actions, so the player has already tried to do something and that attempt (successful or not) has put the player into additional trouble; a Saving Throw move would seem to be a bonus "dodge trouble" move, sidestepping the usual flow of Apocalypse World. As for a PC versus PC conflict: I'm actually not yet familiar enough with the Apocalypse World rules to know for sure, does a player get to make counter-moves to block or mitigate the effects of another player's move against them? It doesn't look like it works that way, in which case again, you wouldn't need a Saving Throw move.
That's not to say there's absolutely no place for a special move or subset of moves called Saving Throws, but it doesn't look likely such a thing would fit in and work the way they do in AD&D.
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So that again calls into question whether there's any need to have a Saving Throw move. The GM only gets to make moves in response to player actions, so the player has already tried to do something and that attempt (successful or not) has put the player into additional trouble; a Saving Throw move would seem to be a bonus "dodge trouble" move, sidestepping the usual flow of Apocalypse World. As for a PC versus PC conflict: I'm actually not yet familiar enough with the Apocalypse World rules to know for sure, does a player get to make counter-moves to block or mitigate the effects of another player's move against them? It doesn't look like it works that way, in which case again, you wouldn't need a Saving Throw move.
That's not to say there's absolutely no place for a special move or subset of moves called Saving Throws, but it doesn't look likely such a thing would fit in and work the way they do in AD&D.
Emphasis mine. As far as I can tell, you've perfectly described "do something under fire or dig in to endure fire" and how it operates in AW. So ApocD&D's saving throws (I say this without having actually read ApocD&D, yet) seem to be a specialized form of acting under fire / enduring fire.
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Also, note carefully that a miscast never automatically happens. It's not a penalty for a failed roll, any more than any DM move in Apocalypse World is a penalty. You're starting to think in terms of "if I try to cast a spell, I may fail!" That's D&D think. What you should be thinking is "if I roll the dice, the DM may get to make a move." Think of the miscast table in those terms. Roll on a random table is one of the DM moves. The miscast table just provides a specific instantiation of this move.
Well, note that I never said a miscast happens automatically or that it's a penalty for failure. Rather, I said it's one of the risks to choosing a spellcasting move. In fact that's one reason why I thought the Miscast Table plus having Saving Throws made for a bad combination for the would-be spellcaster: it looked to me like even in success, a spellcaster still faced the risk of crazy/bad things happening to him (miscast table) plus the risk that his successfully-cast spell might be avoided or negated (saving throw).
However, now I realize that you're correct, I am looking at it the wrong way. For one thing I realized after the fact that saving throws work very differently and don't apply to non-player opponents, so that's not really a risk of failure and doesn't make magic less reliable, at least not in the ways I'd feared. For another, although some of the miscast results still make me uneasy, I see that they are just specifying additional ways that the DM can put you into difficulty, something that he already can do under the standard rules; they're not additional "penalties" on top of his other moves.
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nod
I see what you're doing now, Tony.
It's interesting that there's no Cha-based saving throw. Is Charisma as devalued in ApocDD as it is in AD&D?
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In practice, I find Charisma to be undervalued, despite the Parlay move and move for commanding hirelings. I'm also considering expanding the parlay to allow the players to learn about a creature by interacting with it.
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I'm also formulating some more specific thoughts around Phil's posts, but I really need to digest them more, because he's pointed out some really good realities there.
Still waiting and hoping to see this...